GT4 RS breaks cover then...

[dashobbit]

Billy_Whizzzz said:

Umm… because buying a car is an emotive thing and not about your own ability and certainly not only about the car’s ability.

So the thinking here is that you buy a car that has been built to go round a track (as per AP's comments), and it's totally logical to do that even though you have no ability/willingness to drive any faster than a road car...

Don't think I can ever buy into that thinking. There are far better cars to own than a 4RS for emotion - else Ferraris wouldn't exist

[dashobbit]

isaldiri said:

Someone who gets a sense of enjoyment and/or satisfaction out of his ownership and usage of the car. Whether or not that person chooses to or is unable to go around a track compared to someone else in a less capable road car is completely besides the point.

That's exactly the point. There are so many cars out there that are better than a 4RS - i.e. faster in a straight line, better sound, better mechanics etc... choosing a 4RS to then dawdle round is illogical IMO

[quote]You are the one saying that someone who is on track being passed by far less capable cars should 'do us all a favour and give the keys to someone who can get more from it'. I think that's a bloody condescending attitude to have personally irrespective of how good (as you clearly are) at driving.

Edited by isaldiri on Monday 15th August 00:04

There's nuance there that i'm trying to explain.

Let's say the theoretical fastest time is 1.30 at donnington for a 4RS

Average driver may do 2mins

If someone's going round at 3mins, and being passed by MX5s, Golfs etc... i'm afraid you can't convince me that they've bought the 'right' car

This is a car designed for track. There are so many other options available that tick other boxes that it makes no sense to me to have a 4RS and not be driving it 'properly'

So yes, if one's on track and being passed by everyone else out there... they bought the wrong car

[JAKE2401]

dashobbit said:

Who said anything about ‘winning’? You can’t ‘win’ on a track day. If you have a point to make, counter what is actually being said rather than a position you’ve made up!

The point is incredibly simple. If a road car can go round a track at X speed, and you’re going no faster in a supercar, then who in their right mind would spend all that money on a supercar?

To make money on professional drivers like you?

You can't say that the only way to appreciate such a thing is by driving it on the limit all the time.

Edited by JAKE2401 on Monday 15th August 09:46

[lowndes]

dashobbit said:

The point is incredibly simple. If a road car can go round a track at X speed, and you’re going no faster in a supercar, then who in their right mind would spend all that money on a supercar?

Perhaps because a car with 68 degree V10, 612 bhp, Dry sump, Carbon tub, Inboard suspension, Manual, PCCB, can also be used on the road. Just a thought

[Taffy66]

dashobbit said:

There's nuance there that i'm trying to explain.

Let's say the theoretical fastest time is 1.30 at donnington for a 4RS

Average driver may do 2mins

If someone's going round at 3mins, and being passed by MX5s, Golfs etc... i'm afraid you can't convince me that they've bought the 'right' car

This is a car designed for track. There are so many other options available that tick other boxes that it makes no sense to me to have a 4RS and not be driving it 'properly'

So yes, if one's on track and being passed by everyone else out there... they bought the wrong car

I would consider a 1.30 for a GT4 RS around Donnington very slow and nowhere near its theoretical fastest time.

I have no issues with sharing a trackday with slower drivers as long as they execute good etiquette by keeping one eye in the mirror and moving over to let a faster driver pass. I was one of those slow drivers myself until quite recently so I always try and empathise with novices.
Its nerve wrecking enough for a novice as it is without faster experienced drivers scaring them witless.

Everyone without exception who wants to be good at something has to go through the process of being bad at it first of all.

[Sandy59]

lowndes said:

Perhaps because a car with 68 degree V10, 612 bhp, Dry sump, Carbon tub, Inboard suspension, Manual, PCCB, can also be used on the road. Just a thought

[P. ONeill]

Sandy59 said:

lowndes said:

Perhaps because a car with 68 degree V10, 612 bhp, Dry sump, Carbon tub, Inboard suspension, Manual, PCCB, can also be used on the road. Just a thought

My idea of heaven. Great to see a car like that being used as intended.

I’m just slightly jealous.

[Porsche guy]

I guess anyone hoping for a car will know next month, before the last quarter production takes place....

[JAKE2401]

It'll be with us beginning of next month as typically away until then LOL

Will be due its first track day before October hopefully.

[Porsche guy]

dashobbit said:

This is a car designed for track. There are so many other options available that tick other boxes that it makes no sense to me to have a 4RS and not be driving it 'properly'

So yes, if one's on track and being passed by everyone else out there... they bought the wrong car

Errr.. No he purchased the car he wanted and there is nothing wrong with that!

[JAKE2401]

Porsche guy said:

Errr.. No he purchased the car he wanted and there is nothing wrong with that!

Exactly no car enthusiast would say such a thing as it makes no sense whatsoever, everyone has different abilities but as long as they move over as and when needed no one can complain. Just appreciate the car as you pass it

[Digga]

Taffy66 said:

Everyone without exception who wants to be good at something has to go through the process of being bad at it first of all.

^This.

Everyone pays the same fee for their track day. Everyone is entitled a bit of space on the tarmac and some patience and forbearance. Some give and take, in both directions, makes things safer and simpler.

It's not a race.

[Jim1556]

Digga said:

^This.

Everyone pays the same fee for their track day. Everyone is entitled a bit of space on the tarmac and some patience and forbearance. Some give and take, in both directions, makes things safer and simpler.

It's not a race.

Exactly this! Amazes me you still get idiots smacking helmets and/or gesticulating because someone's not moving over for them - quite prevalent at the Ring on TF - ludicrous!

[isaldiri]

dashobbit said:

There's nuance there that i'm trying to explain.

This is a car designed for track. There are so many other options available that tick other boxes that it makes no sense to me to have a 4RS and not be driving it 'properly'

So yes, if one's on track and being passed by everyone else out there... they bought the wrong car

There's nuance that you are also totally missing.

Fine I get that for you personally it makes no sense to have a 4rs and not drive it faster and make sure no one in an inferior car is faster than you on track. Whatever floats your boat.

However, as long as someone is on track and enjoying himself and not being inconsiderate to others on track, irrespective of whether he's being passed by everyone else or not, he's bought the right car for himself. I certainly wouldn't have the presumption to state that person should just give up and pass his keys/allocation/car to a more worthy person just because he might be slow.

[mat205125]

isaldiri said:

dashobbit said:

There's nuance there that i'm trying to explain.

This is a car designed for track. There are so many other options available that tick other boxes that it makes no sense to me to have a 4RS and not be driving it 'properly'

So yes, if one's on track and being passed by everyone else out there... they bought the wrong car

There's nuance that you are also totally missing.

Fine I get that for you personally it makes no sense to have a 4rs and not drive it faster and make sure no one in an inferior car is faster than you on track. Whatever floats your boat.

However, as long as someone is on track and enjoying himself and not being inconsiderate to others on track, irrespective of whether he's being passed by everyone else or not, he's bought the right car for himself. I certainly wouldn't have the presumption to state that person should just give up and pass his keys/allocation/car to a more worthy person just because he might be slow.

This!

Track driving, Ring TF driving, and even enjoying alpine roads for "canyon carving" isn't automatically a requirement that the driver must be at 9.9 tenths, and tearing the writing from their sidewalls.

Having your own capability limits, and also setting yourself a standard for your mechanical sympathy, can easily mean that a driver is perceived as being "slow", however this need not directly translate into them not being capable, or a car being wasted on them.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a supercar owner to have a strong sense of self (and car) preservation on track, and the fact that a hero in a shed prepared and stripped special can match their pace does not mean that either has bought the wrong car, or they should "hand over the keys to someone faster"

[dashobbit]

isaldiri said:

However, as long as someone is on track and enjoying himself and not being inconsiderate to others on track, irrespective of whether he's being passed by everyone else or not, he's bought the right car for himself. I certainly wouldn't have the presumption to state that person should just give up and pass his keys/allocation/car to a more worthy person just because he might be slow.

Again, it's not about "slow", it's about "so slow it's utterly pointless driving that car".

If your position is that you think a 4RS on track being driven at the same speed as a road car is a 'good purchase' , then i'm sorry but i simply can't agree, and don't see how there's any more 'enjoyment' from driving a 4RS to almost any other car - plenty of loud / fast / stylish etc cars out there that would be better for that use case

Most of the other comments are totally missing the point being made - it's not that a car *can't* be used on the road or driven at anything less than 10/10ths, i've never said that. I've said buy a car that fits its intended use - and driving a 4 RS at Micra speeds on track is not its intended use

e.g. driving a 4RS for the road only - a mistake in my eyes. A GTS would be better than both an RS and a GT4 if you're only interested in road use.

Getting an RS over a 4 - again, mistake unless you're heavily focused on track. Porsche designed the car and specifically said, "it's a track day tool", and caveated the enjoyment of driving it in other circumstances. It's not often a manufacturer directs you towards what you shouldn't be using the car for

If you want an 'experience', try driving an ariel atom. If you want looks and noise, get a ferrari. If you want a massive engine, get an AMG... etc etc, and these aren't exhaustive examples, just indications of the point i'm trying to make

The person that buys a 4RS and drives round at the same speed as a Micra and claims that's more "enjoyable" is someone i'm yet to meet...


What's bemusing is that plenty of people ask for advice on what car to own, and based on the replies on this thread then the default answer should just be, "GT4 RS" no matter what the use case is... except it's not. So, demonstrably my point is supported but for whatever reason it seems contentious, and i can't really see why

[Digga]

dashobbit said:

What's bemusing is that plenty of people ask for advice on what car to own, and based on the replies on this thread then the default answer should just be, "GT4 RS" no matter what the use case is... except it's not. So, demonstrably my point is supported but for whatever reason it seems contentious, and i can't really see why

Since when do people buy the car they actually need?

How many SUV's ever even see anything other than tarmac beneath their wheels?

A car, for many, is not just mere transport or utility, but also, on various levels, an emotional purchase. The latter might be ego, but equally it can be visceral - the feel of the car - or aesthetic.

[Sandy59]

JAKE2401 said:

It'll be with us beginning of next month as typically away until then LOL

Will be due its first track day before October hopefully.

Nice, will look a bit different outside in the sun though if that's Oslo Blue ??
Definitely changes quite a bit in different lighting :

[Boy0]

JAKE2401 said:

It'll be with us beginning of next month as typically away until then LOL

Will be due its first track day before October hopefully.

Congratulations it looks superb. What's the colour.

[JAKE2401]

Sandy59 said:

Nice, will look a bit different outside in the sun though if that's Oslo Blue ??
Definitely changes quite a bit in different lighting :

Yes Its Oslo blue, in the flesh it works so well with the car, definitely chuffed with how its turned out. The room was also quite dim so I imagine it'll look completely different again in the sun. Ordered some of the standard wheels for it in Gold also for track use instead of using the mags. Hopefully will take it for its first track day before October.