My obituary to the NA...and why I'll get over it. :D

[hunter 66]

All engines work in their own ways ..... I have driven a broad spread , Drive Wives Tesla X , brilliant and the future no one will drive anything else soon ....... sadly . Raced 993 GT2 R's for many years , old style turbo's .. a real challenge to drive and keep on the road . Race a GT3 RS 2001 now great analogue to the ultimate ....daily drive a V12 Fez , old skooll loads of torque and drivability ... and have a GT3 RS coming ...... but drove a 488 GTB on the road and track and it shows that Turbo's have changed .
With all it's experience Porsche will improve in this area and make cars where you will not be able to tell besides it is a lot faster

[ags11]

Porsche911R said:

again why move with the times, I have an old phone and 2 987.2 cars, I don't want the 981 even, and there are loads of cars one can buy.

If I bought a 981 I would have it 2 months and it would piss me off, same for a 718 I guess.

If you give in and buy a 4 pot you may as well buy a SUV.

I myself would be looking at the new Manual M2 competition if one had to have a brand new car under £70k

Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 26th February 14:59

If you're not keen on Porsche eps, I can't see you keeping a BMW for long? Terrible steering these days- absolutely zero feel- just light, or heavy in sport mode.

[GT4RS]

ags11 said:

Porsche911R said:

again why move with the times, I have an old phone and 2 987.2 cars, I don't want the 981 even, and there are loads of cars one can buy.

If I bought a 981 I would have it 2 months and it would piss me off, same for a 718 I guess.

If you give in and buy a 4 pot you may as well buy a SUV.

I myself would be looking at the new Manual M2 competition if one had to have a brand new car under £70k

Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 26th February 14:59

If you're not keen on Porsche eps, I can't see you keeping a BMW for long? Terrible steering these days- absolutely zero feel- just light, or heavy in sport mode.

70k on a new bmw m2?

You must be mad!

I wouldn’t touch a bmw again as a premium car, build quality is poor, customer service is even worse!

Bmw is now designed for the mass market, they discounting the m3 massively to get them moving.

[DJMC]

bcr5784 said:

Do explain why a turbo engine once spooled up should have any different throttle response to a NA engine.

You ought to know by now that I don't prefer turbo engines to NA ones in general or in this instance in particular. But I don't dismiss them on the basis of prejudice or muddled pseudo science.

Why do you keep saying "spooled up?" To get to spooled up you have to go from tickover and that's where the problem lies. Lag.
It's impossible to drive a car, even for fun only, on today's roads and keep the revs over 3000rpm.

So the turbo'd car, and the 718S I drove was no exception, keeps lagging from low revs whereas the N/A 981 doesn't.
As the OP says, economy also suffers during this stuttering, sometimes on boost, sometimes off, progress.

My only turbo petrol car, a 2012 TTS, suffered lag, overrun, 31mpg max. My 981 manages 42mpg on a run and 36 average over 27k miles. Not that economy is vital, just nice to have a better car which costs less in fuel.

[Cheib]

I am honestly not sure if with the 718 whether it’s more that it’s a F4 or that it’s Turbo. With the 991.2 people (at least in my perception) have been much more sanguine about the introduction of the F6T, Indeed people raved about the engine in the 991.2 GTS including a lot of people tha5 had previously owned the 991.1 GTS.

[bcr5784]

You are missing the point. There is a difference between lag (which I dislike more than most) and throttle response. Though some on here are saying turbo engines are Always less responsive than NA ones. Not so once you are moving and driving like you mean it there need be no difference. In the case of the 718 even when you lift (in Normal and Sport+) the throttle stays open so the turbo Remains spooled up. Stay over 3000rpm and a 718 is just as responsive as a 981.

Don't get me wrong, I probably dislike the 718 engine as much as you, not because it's a turbo or a 4 as such. I find the off/on boost transition too big and unrefined at 2000rpm and the noise is no more to my taste than many. In my experience neither criticism need apply to a turbo 4.

[bcr5784]

Rather than assert that is the case could you quote some technical reference?
It would be bizarre on a road car if max turbo rpm occurred beyond highest max torque (4500rpm on 718 )

Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 27th February 01:33

Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 27th February 01:37

Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 27th February 01:44

[Tim bo]

PhantomPH said:

And that's what a huge amount of Porsche buyers are buying - that look. That curb appeal. The badge, the style...not the engine.

LOL - complete opposite for me. I didn't buy my 718 CS for the curb appeal, the badge, the style; I bought it for many things, and one of the main reasons was the engine.

Two years ago now I was keen to get behind the wheel of a Cayman, I test drove a few 981 S and GTS models with a view to purchasing, was umming and ahhing about placing an order, when I heard that the new incoming Cayman 718 was to be turbo. I was delighted and held off on purchasing anything until I managed to get a test drive in a 718 BS, one of the first examples brought to showrooms in London. It was spot on for me, and I placed an order for my 718 CS shortly after.

I much prefer the shove of forced induction to the linear line of NA - I always have. Others have a different opinion - shrugs - I buy my cars for me.

Edited by Tim bo on Tuesday 27th February 06:29

[PhantomPH]

Tim bo said:

PhantomPH said:

And that's what a huge amount of Porsche buyers are buying - that look. That curb appeal. The badge, the style...not the engine.

LOL - complete opposite for me. I didn't buy my 718 CS for the curb appeal, the badge, the style; I bought it for many things, and one of the main reasons was the engine.

Two years ago now I was keen to get behind the wheel of a Cayman, I test drove a few 981 S and GTS models with a view to purchasing, was umming and ahhing about placing an order, when I heard that the new incoming Cayman 718 was to be turbo. I was delighted and held off on purchasing anything until I managed to get a test drive in a 718 BS, one of the first examples brought to showrooms in London. It was spot on for me, and I placed an order for my 718 CS shortly after.

I much prefer the shove of forced induction to the linear line of NA - I always have. Others have a different opinion - shrugs - I buy my cars for me.

Exactly mate - and so you should. My assertion was 'most'. I probably shouldn't have generalised as it's based on anecdotal evidence at best, but I think those who frequent a forum like PH probably only make up a tiny number of the Porsche buying public - and we are all driving Gods here, of course.

[Porsche911R]

GT4RS said:

70k on a new bmw m2?

You must be mad!

I wouldn’t touch a bmw again as a premium car, build quality is poor, customer service is even worse!

Bmw is now designed for the mass market, they discounting the m3 massively to get them moving.

and Porsche is not a mass market car now ? the best seller is a Macan !

[Cheib]

Porsche911R said:

GT4RS said:

70k on a new bmw m2?

You must be mad!

I wouldn’t touch a bmw again as a premium car, build quality is poor, customer service is even worse!

Bmw is now designed for the mass market, they discounting the m3 massively to get them moving.

and Porsche is not a mass market car now ? the best seller is a Macan !

Porsche roughly sells as many cars in a year as Mercedes sells in a month. Porsche isn't mass market....they sell circa 13k or 14k cars annually.

[Twinfan]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

This is exactly my issue too. If you want a new sports car with manual box and an NA engine you have the MX5, GT86 or Mustang as your only options. The Mustang is too big and lardy for the UK and twisty road driving (IMHO) and the GT86 feels cheap compared to a Porsche and it has a very rough engine (Mrs Twinfan had one for several years so I know them well).

I would also love a new GT3 (can't afford one) or GT4 (won't be offered one) so I really did only just catch the last train buying my 981 CGTS. It'll have to be my lifelong keeper so I'm looking at mods to make it mine

[PhantomPH]

Twinfan said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

This is exactly my issue too. If you want a new sports car with manual box and an NA engine you have the MX5, GT86 or Mustang as your only options. The Mustang is too big and lardy for the UK and twisty road driving (IMHO) and the GT86 feels cheap compared to a Porsche and it has a very rough engine (Mrs Twinfan had one for several years so I know them well).

I would also love a new GT3 (can't afford one) or GT4 (won't be offered one) so I really did only just catch the last train buying my 981 CGTS. It'll have to be my lifelong keeper so I'm looking at mods to make it mine

We may end up with electric hybrid being a nice option (albeit with added weight penalty). Filling in the low-rev torque with electric motors could be a great option - I'd be interested to try a Cayman/911 with that configuration, just out of curiosity!

[Twinfan]

No batteries for me - I'll stick with my 981...

[HighwayStar]

Cheib said:

Porsche911R said:

GT4RS said:

70k on a new bmw m2?

You must be mad!

I wouldn’t touch a bmw again as a premium car, build quality is poor, customer service is even worse!

Bmw is now designed for the mass market, they discounting the m3 massively to get them moving.

and Porsche is not a mass market car now ? the best seller is a Macan !

Porsche roughly sells as many cars in a year as Mercedes sells in a month. Porsche isn't mass market....they sell circa 13k or 14k cars annually.

You are way wide of the mark re Porsche annual sales....
Global sales for 2018
The upward trend continued in 2017, as Porsche AG has delivered around 246,000 vehicles to customers worldwide in the last year. With this figure, the Stuttgart-based sports car manufacturer exceeded the record set in 2016 by another four per cent. A significant boost came from approximately 28,000 deliveries of the new Panamera; an increase of 83 per cent compared to the previous year

It's all here.
Porsche sell over double what you say just in 911's!!

[Cheib]

HighwayStar said:

Cheib said:

Porsche911R said:

GT4RS said:

70k on a new bmw m2?

You must be mad!

I wouldn’t touch a bmw again as a premium car, build quality is poor, customer service is even worse!

Bmw is now designed for the mass market, they discounting the m3 massively to get them moving.

and Porsche is not a mass market car now ? the best seller is a Macan !

Porsche roughly sells as many cars in a year as Mercedes sells in a month. Porsche isn't mass market....they sell circa 13k or 14k cars annually.

You are way wide of the mark re Porsche annual sales....
Global sales for 2018
The upward trend continued in 2017, as Porsche AG has delivered around 246,000 vehicles to customers worldwide in the last year. With this figure, the Stuttgart-based sports car manufacturer exceeded the record set in 2016 by another four per cent. A significant boost came from approximately 28,000 deliveries of the new Panamera; an increase of 83 per cent compared to the previous year

It's all here.
Porsche sell over double what you say just in 911's!!

Apologies. I was talking about the UK. My numbers for the UK are about right. And on a global basis Porsche really isn't mass market...UK is one of it's biggest markets. And I am pretty sure Porsche wouldn't want to be described as mass market either!

[HighwayStar]

Cheib said:

HighwayStar said:

Cheib said:

Porsche911R said:

GT4RS said:

70k on a new bmw m2?

You must be mad!

I wouldn’t touch a bmw again as a premium car, build quality is poor, customer service is even worse!

Bmw is now designed for the mass market, they discounting the m3 massively to get them moving.

and Porsche is not a mass market car now ? the best seller is a Macan !

Porsche roughly sells as many cars in a year as Mercedes sells in a month. Porsche isn't mass market....they sell circa 13k or 14k cars annually.

You are way wide of the mark re Porsche annual sales....
Global sales for 2018
The upward trend continued in 2017, as Porsche AG has delivered around 246,000 vehicles to customers worldwide in the last year. With this figure, the Stuttgart-based sports car manufacturer exceeded the record set in 2016 by another four per cent. A significant boost came from approximately 28,000 deliveries of the new Panamera; an increase of 83 per cent compared to the previous year

It's all here.
Porsche sell over double what you say just in 911's!!

Apologies. I was talking about the UK. My numbers for the UK are about right. And on a global basis Porsche really isn't mass market...UK is one of it's biggest markets. And I am pretty sure Porsche wouldn't want to be described as mass market either!

Hard to say... they are not BMW production levels but they are a long way from Ferrari levels of exclusivity... not that I care.

[PhantomPH]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

That's fair.

I was really just continuing my acceptance of a life after true NA. Thinking (probably naively) that the sports car industry could continue the loophole exploitation of things like the 918 - where it can quote silly MPG and emissions figures but still have a screaming V8.

Wishful thinking, I suppose!

[JayK12]

ags11 said:

Porsche911R said:

again why move with the times, I have an old phone and 2 987.2 cars, I don't want the 981 even, and there are loads of cars one can buy.

If I bought a 981 I would have it 2 months and it would piss me off, same for a 718 I guess.

If you give in and buy a 4 pot you may as well buy a SUV.

I myself would be looking at the new Manual M2 competition if one had to have a brand new car under £70k

Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 26th February 14:59

If you're not keen on Porsche eps, I can't see you keeping a BMW for long? Terrible steering these days- absolutely zero feel- just light, or heavy in sport mode.

lol - you'll be selling that in 2 weeks. BMW EPS is the worst, I own one!

[Alex]

Many people confuse revs being below the boost threshold with lag.