Cayman GTS P Zeros
Discussion
Schmed said:
Looks like Alpine have got this right then 
https://www.tyrepress.com/2017/03/michelin-supplie...
Do you work for Pirelli, BCR ?
Purely coincidental that Michelin is French of course......https://www.tyrepress.com/2017/03/michelin-supplie...
Do you work for Pirelli, BCR ?
Schmed said:
You will note that Alpine have gone for P 4 Sports - not the S that Porsche can use. They are trying to create a car that is mobile and not going for ultimate grip. Definitely NOT one they will quoting a 'Ring time for If you look at the Evo test I quote above (of P 4 Sports) you will see that although Michelin comes out top PZeros come out a close second and are a tad grippier in some circumstances.bcr5784 said:
You will note that Alpine have gone for P 4 Sports - not the S that Porsche can use. They are trying to create a car that is mobile and not going for ultimate grip. Definitely NOT one they will quoting a 'Ring time for If you look at the Evo test I quote above (of P 4 Sports) you will see that although Michelin comes out top PZeros come out a close second and are a tad grippier in some circumstances.
EVO never allow a MPSS or a PS4S on their tests, funny that.Schmed said:
Looks like Alpine have got this right then
https://www.tyrepress.com/2017/03/michelin-supplie...
Do you work for Pirelli, BCR ?
I have no connection with Pirelli - except in relation to the good service I received when I had the Pzero problems. A more relevant question is "does 911R work for Michelin?". I'm not dissing Michelin - as I say I am prepared to accept that Michelins may well be a tad better - but to suggest Michelins great, Pirellis crap across the board flies in the face of many independent tests and my own experience. To suggest that the OP (remember him?) should bin a perfectly good set of N1 Pzeros is ridiculous.https://www.tyrepress.com/2017/03/michelin-supplie...
Do you work for Pirelli, BCR ?
bcr5784 said:
I have no connection with Pirelli - except in relation to the good service I received when I had the Pzero problems. A more relevant question is "does 911R work for Michelin?". I'm not dissing Michelin - as I say I am prepared to accept that Michelins may well be a tad better - but to suggest Michelins great, Pirellis crap across the board flies in the face of many independent tests and my own experience. To suggest that the OP (remember him?) should bin a perfectly good set of N1 Pzeros is ridiculous.
In 17 years of using Michelin tyres, I've never once had any of them crack or require premature replacement due to poor manufacturing.Pirelli however have previous for just this, ask the numerous Subaru Impreza P1 owners (and IIRC Lotus Elise owners too).
https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-general-1/1374...
I've driven plenty of 911's on the "original" P Zeros, as fitted by Porsche to the Mk1 996 GT3, one word sums up their performance : Parlous.
The zero in P Zero would often appear to have been indicative of their grip levels, and on two Mk1 GT3's I've experienced levels of grip that made the car all but undrivable even at sane speeds. Fitment of Michelin PS2's transformed the cars immediately.
The Mk1 996 GT3 I purchased back in 2004 had P Zeros fitted. Left in the garage overnight after a "spirited" drive, and subsequently driven the day or week after, the tyres felt like 50 pence pieces for the first ten or so miles, such was the flat spotting that plagued them.
Whilst pleasantly quiet and comfortable riding when new, once 50% worn they hummed and buzzed like no other tyre I've experienced. Their grip levels when new were satisfactory too (they never had the initial turn in bite of the Michelins) but once a third worn, their grip levels fell dramatically, and once they were 70% worn, they became a liability.
They were extremely intolerant of being run at anything less (or indeed more) than the prescribed pressures, a loss of 3 psi would see the car tramlining and the grip levels deteriorate in a way I've NEVER experienced with ANY Michelin (or Bridgestone) tyre.
Other owners with Pirellis fitted to their cars complained of exactly the same issues as those I've documented. Coincidence ? Maybe, but I'm doubtful.
Rightly or wrongly, Pirelli garnered a reputation for being the poor relation when fitted to a Porsche from 2000-2010, and whilst there's every chance their more recent products have improved, there would still appear to have been rather too many cases of tyres having been replaced due to severe cracking, for me to consider them "out of the woods" when it comes to producing consistently good products in the manner Michelin have over the past 17 years.
By all mean champion their customer service, but please don't try and convince the rest of us that their products are exemplary, when it's clear they've produced some products with very questionable characteristics, never mind extremely poor quality, over the years.
Slippydiff said:
In 17 years of using Michelin tyres, I've never once had any of them crack or require premature replacement due to poor manufacturing.
Pirelli however have previous for just this, ask the numerous Subaru Impreza P1 owners (and IIRC Lotus Elise owners too).
https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-general-1/1374...
I've driven plenty of 911's on the "original" P Zeros, as fitted by Porsche to the Mk1 996 GT3, one word sums up their performance : Parlous.
The zero in P Zero would often appear to have been indicative of their grip levels, and on two Mk1 GT3's I've experienced levels of grip that made the car all but undrivable even at sane speeds. Fitment of Michelin PS2's transformed the cars immediately.
The Mk1 996 GT3 I purchased back in 2004 had P Zeros fitted. Left in the garage overnight after a "spirited" drive, and subsequently driven the day or week after, the tyres felt like 50 pence pieces for the first ten or so miles, such was the flat spotting that plagued them.
Whilst pleasantly quiet and comfortable riding when new, once 50% worn they hummed and buzzed like no other tyre I've experienced. Their grip levels when new were satisfactory too (they never had the initial turn in bite of the Michelins) but once a third worn, their grip levels fell dramatically, and once they were 70% worn, they became a liability.
They were extremely intolerant of being run at anything less (or indeed more) than the prescribed pressures, a loss of 3 psi would see the car tramlining and the grip levels deteriorate in a way I've NEVER experienced with ANY Michelin (or Bridgestone) tyre.
Other owners with Pirellis fitted to their cars complained of exactly the same issues as those I've documented. Coincidence ? Maybe, but I'm doubtful.
Rightly or wrongly, Pirelli garnered a reputation for being the poor relation when fitted to a Porsche from 2000-2010, and whilst there's every chance their more recent products have improved, there would still appear to have been rather too many cases of tyres having been replaced due to severe cracking, for me to consider them "out of the woods" when it comes to producing consistently good products in the manner Michelin have over the past 17 years.
By all mean champion their customer service, but please don't try and convince the rest of us that their products are exemplary, when it's clear they've produced some products with very questionable characteristics, never mind extremely poor quality, over the years.
No-one is suggesting that the previous generation of pZeros were satisfactory - I had the cracking! But to suggest that this means the (very different) replacements (and all Pirellis) are crap on the basis of that is ludicrous. I do have the advantage over you, I suspect, of having done serveral thousand miles on N1s. Pirelli however have previous for just this, ask the numerous Subaru Impreza P1 owners (and IIRC Lotus Elise owners too).
https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-general-1/1374...
I've driven plenty of 911's on the "original" P Zeros, as fitted by Porsche to the Mk1 996 GT3, one word sums up their performance : Parlous.
The zero in P Zero would often appear to have been indicative of their grip levels, and on two Mk1 GT3's I've experienced levels of grip that made the car all but undrivable even at sane speeds. Fitment of Michelin PS2's transformed the cars immediately.
The Mk1 996 GT3 I purchased back in 2004 had P Zeros fitted. Left in the garage overnight after a "spirited" drive, and subsequently driven the day or week after, the tyres felt like 50 pence pieces for the first ten or so miles, such was the flat spotting that plagued them.
Whilst pleasantly quiet and comfortable riding when new, once 50% worn they hummed and buzzed like no other tyre I've experienced. Their grip levels when new were satisfactory too (they never had the initial turn in bite of the Michelins) but once a third worn, their grip levels fell dramatically, and once they were 70% worn, they became a liability.
They were extremely intolerant of being run at anything less (or indeed more) than the prescribed pressures, a loss of 3 psi would see the car tramlining and the grip levels deteriorate in a way I've NEVER experienced with ANY Michelin (or Bridgestone) tyre.
Other owners with Pirellis fitted to their cars complained of exactly the same issues as those I've documented. Coincidence ? Maybe, but I'm doubtful.
Rightly or wrongly, Pirelli garnered a reputation for being the poor relation when fitted to a Porsche from 2000-2010, and whilst there's every chance their more recent products have improved, there would still appear to have been rather too many cases of tyres having been replaced due to severe cracking, for me to consider them "out of the woods" when it comes to producing consistently good products in the manner Michelin have over the past 17 years.
By all mean champion their customer service, but please don't try and convince the rest of us that their products are exemplary, when it's clear they've produced some products with very questionable characteristics, never mind extremely poor quality, over the years.
Why have you bought a Porsche after the IMS, borescoring and catching fire issues?
When I bought my 997 turbo I had a brand new set of P-Zero`s fitted. They lasted 16,000 miles of daily use. I decided to swap them for the MP4S`s, and personally I found the difference in road feel, grip and handling was staggering. It was like another car. Even in the rain.
16,000 miles later and the MP4S`s are only half worn.
16,000 miles later and the MP4S`s are only half worn.
bcr5784 said:
No-one is suggesting that the previous generation of pZeros were satisfactory - I had the cracking! But to suggest that this means the (very different) replacements (and all Pirellis) are crap on the basis of that is ludicrous. I do have the advantage over you, I suspect, of having done serveral thousand miles on N1s.
I've not said all Pirellis are "crap", I said my experiences of them have been poor. Seemingly plenty of others have had those same poor experiences. My post was merely to provide some balance to your continued rose-tinted spectacle/head buried in the sand type posts that all's well because Pirelli replaced your faulty tyres. The issues I and other experienced are separate from the cracking issues. but paint a less that perfect image of Pirellis previous P Zero products.
bcr5784 said:
Why have you bought a Porsche after the IMS, borescoring and catching fire issues?
Please excuse my ignorance, I haven't a clue which vehicle you're referring to ? Slippydiff said:
Please excuse my ignorance, I haven't a clue which vehicle you're referring to ?
I am simply suggesting that double standards are in play. Pirelli produce one tyre that is a bit of a dud - and Pirelli are to be avoided. Porsche produce some decidedly iffy engines and (presumably) all is forgiven. Nothing rose tinted about my view of Pirelli - unless you think that the whole of the motoring press have rose tinted spectacles too,bcr5784 said:
I am simply suggesting that double standards are in play. Pirelli produce one tyre that is a bit of a dud - and Pirelli are to be avoided. Porsche produce some decidedly iffy engines and (presumably) all is forgiven. Nothing rose tinted about my view of Pirelli - unless you think that the whole of the motoring press have rose tinted spectacles too,
I think you're fighting a losing battle there BCR. It seems the majority of posters don't seem too keen (even on N1s.)The Evo review is pretty surprising to me given my personal experience and also the consensus of opinion on here TBH. I found them (PZ N1s) really slidey in the wet (ok could be my driving) but over half worn and they were verging on dangerous.
No issues in the dry however. But since I only visit Spain once a year
they're not really an ideal tyre for my everyday use.Barleyboy said:
Swapped from P Zeros to Michelin PS4S . Great change in handling and grip.BUT p zeros lasts 10000 miles at least and handled 4 track days incl spa . PS4S lasted on fronts 1000 miles with only 300 track miles and delaminated on the fronts! No screaming tyres or back end movement but fronts surprised me. Replacing them and then a good chat with Michelin . Spend a lot a year with them and will see how they deal with this. Anyone have a contact with someone with understanding in Michelin? The tyre has a racing flag on the sidewall. ??
On my old tuned 335i, i had a few set of MPSS, which last me 20k+ rears and 30k front. 1 track day( think of it as driving improvement time to get used to the car rather than time attack). i do alot of motorway and i do drive quite aggressive, i drive like it drinks water not fuel lolbcr5784 said:
I am simply suggesting that double standards are in play. Pirelli produce one tyre that is a bit of a dud - and Pirelli are to be avoided. Porsche produce some decidedly iffy engines and (presumably) all is forgiven. Nothing rose tinted about my view of Pirelli - unless you think that the whole of the motoring press have rose tinted spectacles too,
The press ? Well I could tell you about the knowing smirk/ silence I got from one of THE highly regarded contributors to Evo 7-8 years ago, when the subject of Pirellis came to the fore.I looked in said contributors direction and made a comment along the lines of
“Of course *****, as they’re proud sponsors of numerous features in Evo AND they run multi page adverts within its hallowed pages , you wouldn’t be in a position to comment on their products without a certain degree of bias, would you ?”
Cue that knowing smirk/silence ...
As for your other comments, if a company such as Pirelli choose to tender and supply a company such as Porsche, they can expect their products to bear the closest scrutiny, and should they produce a tyre that’s lacking, they’d be foolhardy to think that releasing such a poor quality product on the unsuspecting public, wouldn’t lead to all their products being tarred with the same brush.
What do they say about reputations taking years to build and moments to lose ?
On principle I wouldn’t fit ANY of Pirellis products to ANY of my cars.
And posts such as that made by rabbitstew in this very thread, only serve to reinforce my view that the tyres Michelin produce generally seem to be superior to those of Pirelli.
Porsche make some unique products, the 911 being the primary example.
As such many individuals can and do excuse their many and varied foibles.
Pirelli make neither unique or exclusive products, and hence voting with ones feet when it comes to choosing whether or not to purchase them, is far less problematic...
Before I bought my 981 I'd had and rejected other brands and will never buy a Mercedes or Aston Martin again. Never.
So I tried one product from each and my experience leads me to dislike that so much that it's tainted the brand. Up to me to decide, yes?
Similarly, one experience of Pirelli is enough for me to reject them all. Up to me, yes?
Now, when someone asks for opinions on a forum they are asking for a variety of responses to give them food for thought.
I have added my opinion but it's up to others to ignore it and plough on with buying Pirelli, Mercedes, Aston Martin. Yes?
All good then.
So I tried one product from each and my experience leads me to dislike that so much that it's tainted the brand. Up to me to decide, yes?
Similarly, one experience of Pirelli is enough for me to reject them all. Up to me, yes?
Now, when someone asks for opinions on a forum they are asking for a variety of responses to give them food for thought.
I have added my opinion but it's up to others to ignore it and plough on with buying Pirelli, Mercedes, Aston Martin. Yes?
All good then.
Slippydiff said:
The press ? Well I could tell you about the knowing smirk/ silence I got from one of THE highly regarded contributors to Evo 7-8 years ago, when the subject of Pirellis came to the fore.
I looked in said contributors direction and made a comment along the lines of
“Of course *****, as they’re proud sponsors of numerous features in Evo AND they run multi page adverts within its hallowed pages , you wouldn’t be in a position to comment on their products without a certain degree of bias, would you ?”
Cue that knowing smirk/silence ...
As for your other comments, if a company such as Pirelli choose to tender and supply a company such as Porsche, they can expect their products to bear the closest scrutiny, and should they produce a tyre that’s lacking, they’d be foolhardy to think that releasing such a poor quality product on the unsuspecting public, wouldn’t lead to all their products being tarred with the same brush.
What do they say about reputations taking years to build and moments to lose ?
On principle I wouldn’t fit ANY of Pirellis products to ANY of my cars.
And posts such as that made by rabbitstew in this very thread, only serve to reinforce my view that the tyres Michelin produce generally seem to be superior to those of Pirelli.
Porsche make some unique products, the 911 being the primary example.
As such many individuals can and do excuse their many and varied foibles.
Pirelli make neither unique or exclusive products, and hence voting with ones feet when it comes to choosing whether or not to purchase them, is far less problematic...
The comment came from 7 or 8 years ago......I have had good bad and indifferent tyres from pretty much every major tyre manufacturer over the years and I could give reasons for rejecting them all . I looked in said contributors direction and made a comment along the lines of
“Of course *****, as they’re proud sponsors of numerous features in Evo AND they run multi page adverts within its hallowed pages , you wouldn’t be in a position to comment on their products without a certain degree of bias, would you ?”
Cue that knowing smirk/silence ...
As for your other comments, if a company such as Pirelli choose to tender and supply a company such as Porsche, they can expect their products to bear the closest scrutiny, and should they produce a tyre that’s lacking, they’d be foolhardy to think that releasing such a poor quality product on the unsuspecting public, wouldn’t lead to all their products being tarred with the same brush.
What do they say about reputations taking years to build and moments to lose ?
On principle I wouldn’t fit ANY of Pirellis products to ANY of my cars.
And posts such as that made by rabbitstew in this very thread, only serve to reinforce my view that the tyres Michelin produce generally seem to be superior to those of Pirelli.
Porsche make some unique products, the 911 being the primary example.
As such many individuals can and do excuse their many and varied foibles.
Pirelli make neither unique or exclusive products, and hence voting with ones feet when it comes to choosing whether or not to purchase them, is far less problematic...
I come back to where we started - DO YOU really think it would be sensible to bin a brand new set of N1s as 911R is suggesting. As I have REPEATEDLY said I think Michelins are probably a BIT better overall than Pirellis - which is in line with what other reports suggest (not just Evo) - and I, if I was replacing my tyres would probably choose Michelin. But there is no way I'm going to bin a perfectly good set of N1s and it is utterly ridiculous to suggest the OP should.
I had to replace my rears recently and toyed with just replacing the lot with Michelins.
However, given that I only do 5000 miles a year in my GTS, I went for N0s.....I find them fine for fast road driving, no problems with grip in the dry....I prefer not to go mad on a public road in the wet.
My previous concern with N0s was probably because the rears were worn, I’ve really enjoyed the grippier rear.
Was cracking not just an issue with early batches?
Michelins next time though.
However, given that I only do 5000 miles a year in my GTS, I went for N0s.....I find them fine for fast road driving, no problems with grip in the dry....I prefer not to go mad on a public road in the wet.
My previous concern with N0s was probably because the rears were worn, I’ve really enjoyed the grippier rear.
Was cracking not just an issue with early batches?
Michelins next time though.
Jazzer said:
I had to replace my rears recently and toyed with just replacing the lot with Michelins.
However, given that I only do 5000 miles a year in my GTS, I went for N0s.....I find them fine for fast road driving, no problems with grip in the dry....I prefer not to go mad on a public road in the wet.
My previous concern with N0s was probably because the rears were worn, I’ve really enjoyed the grippier rear.
Was cracking not just an issue with early batches?
Michelins next time though.
I still have a car with P-zero it lights up in 3rd in a straight line , useless !!!However, given that I only do 5000 miles a year in my GTS, I went for N0s.....I find them fine for fast road driving, no problems with grip in the dry....I prefer not to go mad on a public road in the wet.
My previous concern with N0s was probably because the rears were worn, I’ve really enjoyed the grippier rear.
Was cracking not just an issue with early batches?
Michelins next time though.
I have ran 2 other cars with PS4S over winter no issues, it like driving in the dry.
seems a shame to ruin a GTS with poor tyres, but people do think I am mad binning 3 sets new tyres ! but I love my cars and for £800 it seem a shame to ruin them on a £80k to £120k cars.
most people are happy with crap tyres, so it's a non issue really, if you want more feed back more grip and a safer car for the other half, you change the tyres, if you are happy with ditch finders till they have 1.6mm on them that's also great.
As slippy says the Zero in P-zero stand for zero grip.
Jazzer said:
I had to replace my rears recently and toyed with just replacing the lot with Michelins.
However, given that I only do 5000 miles a year in my GTS, I went for N0s.....I find them fine for fast road driving, no problems with grip in the dry....I prefer not to go mad on a public road in the wet.
My previous concern with N0s was probably because the rears were worn, I’ve really enjoyed the grippier rear.
Was cracking not just an issue with early batches?
Michelins next time though.
I'm tempted too to replace my rears with GY F1s again otherwise I have to bin my half worn GY F1 fronts, costing me money. However, given that I only do 5000 miles a year in my GTS, I went for N0s.....I find them fine for fast road driving, no problems with grip in the dry....I prefer not to go mad on a public road in the wet.
My previous concern with N0s was probably because the rears were worn, I’ve really enjoyed the grippier rear.
Was cracking not just an issue with early batches?
Michelins next time though.
After that the next time should see all four worn out at roughly the same time and by then we should know more about the PS4S long-term.
I can justify this as I know the F1s from 22k miles in this car and 13k miles in my previous TTS. They are very good in my opinion.
But you hint at not being entirely happy with your N0s in the wet, and although you prefer not to go mad in the wet sometimes you have to react to a mistake, yours or another road users, and then when your car goes mad you have to rely on your tyres as they are the only thing in touch with the road. And so by choosing the economy of replacing two tyres instead of four you risk your life in the process. If I were unhappy with my GYs in the wet, as I was with my Pirelli N0s generally, I would replace them half worn, as I did with my Pirellis, AND had Pirelli agree they were faulty, AND had Pirelli pay for my GYs. Such are the life and death choices we make every day...
My N0s were late 2013 build for a 2014 car...
bcr5784 said:
The comment came from 7 or 8 years ago......I have had good bad and indifferent tyres from pretty much every major tyre manufacturer over the years and I could give reasons for rejecting them all .
And that's precisely where we differ, of all the Michelin tyre types I've fitted, I've not experienced ANYTHING as parlous as the P Zero. The PS3 (which everyone thought was the replacement for the PS2 wasn't that brilliant, but parlous ? No.bcr5784 said:
I come back to where we started - DO YOU really think it would be sensible to bin a brand new set of N1s as 911R is suggesting. As I have REPEATEDLY said I think Michelins are probably a BIT better overall than Pirellis - which is in line with what other reports suggest (not just Evo) - and I, if I was replacing my tyres would probably choose Michelin. But there is no way I'm going to bin a perfectly good set of N1s and it is utterly ridiculous to suggest the OP should.
As you seem hellbent on extracting answer from me on a subject matter I've not even commented on, I will. Yes, I would remove remove what I considered to be a perfectly serviceable, but sub-optimal set of tyres, new or part worn. I did precisely that with my 993 RS that came to me on some poor quality Bridgestone SO3's, and guess what their replacements were ? ....
Likewise a Mk1 996 GT3 that came on P Zeros, which were replaced with PS2's.
As for why I would do such a thing ? Because there's always someone out there who wants something cheapish, round and black to fit to a car to get it through an MOT and/or stop their wheels from being ground away when they use the car to attend Porsche Club GB events or to wheel it out onto the drive to polish it ...
Additionally lifes waaaay too short to be driving a decent car with well honed chassis dynamics around for 10-15k miles on sub-optimal tyres, be that due to their less than exemplary grip in the wet, poor steering feel or poor ride/handling generally.
I hear what you’re saying, but I would certainly not be driving on tyres that I thought were compromising my safety.
Different tyres have different characteristics and as long as we know what they are and drive accordingly, we can usually survive. The Pirellis have been great on our two dry days recently, that’s when I enjoy the GTS experience, with perhaps a firmer ride being my thing.
Different tyres have different characteristics and as long as we know what they are and drive accordingly, we can usually survive. The Pirellis have been great on our two dry days recently, that’s when I enjoy the GTS experience, with perhaps a firmer ride being my thing.
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