Proof that a manual is quicker than a PDK!!

[V8KSN]

ORD said:

It's obviously complete nonsense to say that changing gear manually is ALWAYS easy - most of the time in road driving, it is very easy to change gear smoothly, but it is nothing like easy when you are braking hard into a corner and trying to slot into 2nd at 4500 rpm. I think that it was what was meant by "at the limit"....

...A manual is more fun all of the time in a spirited drive, and it is much harder for a few corners on any such drive....

A lot of people both love manual cars and drive a PDK. I would rather have a manual overall, but only just, because a manual is more fun 50% of the time and a bit irritating 50% of the time (for the driving that I do).

Indeed!

If money were no object I would have a Porsche 991 GT3 as a daily and a Porsche 997 4.0 RS for high days and dry days.

A PDK is great for everyday in stop start traffic etc but I wouldn't want to 'marry' one

[blueg33]

ORD said:

It's obviously complete nonsense to say that changing gear manually is ALWAYS easy - most of the time in road driving, it is very easy to change gear smoothly, but it is nothing like easy when you are braking hard into a corner and trying to slot into 2nd at 4500 rpm. I think that it was what was meant by "at the limit".

A manual is more fun all of the time in a spirited drive, and it is much harder for a few corners on any such drive. For example, I drove my wife's 320i touring (not actually a bad steer at all, surprisingly) up fish hill with 3 people in it this weekend. You need the top of 2nd and the middle of 3rd to drive that hill fastish with that amount of weight (1700kg plus 3 people) and that amount of power (about 180bhp). I had to make 3 downchanges into 2nd, and I got one perfect, one OK and one crap. In my car (987.2 PDK), it is impossible to (a) get a change as good as my perfect one (and certainly not as satisfying) and (b) get a change as bad as the other two!

I would choose a manual car every day of the week for that kind of driving, despite (/because of) the fact that it would definitely slow me down and make me cock up a few changes.

A lot of people both love manual cars and drive a PDK. I would rather have a manual overall, but only just, because a manual is more fun 50% of the time and a bit irritating 50% of the time (for the driving that I do).

Fish hill is tricky to get right in anything! I am certain that a pdk would be quicker up there than a manual. For me though, the reward in getting a manual up there quickly would outweigh the benefits of being a bit faster in a pdk. Thats because I like to hone the skill of gearchange and balance together.

[ORD]

blueg33 said:

Fish hill is tricky to get right in anything! I am certain that a pdk would be quicker up there than a manual. For me though, the reward in getting a manual up there quickly would outweigh the benefits of being a bit faster in a pdk. Thats because I like to hone the skill of gearchange and balance together.

The trick is to use both lanes

I have only ever once seen someone else drive up that hill quickly, which supports my theory that (PHers aside) pretty much nobody can engage 2nd gear at speed without a lurch (me included half the time ).

[blueg33]

ORD said:

blueg33 said:

Fish hill is tricky to get right in anything! I am certain that a pdk would be quicker up there than a manual. For me though, the reward in getting a manual up there quickly would outweigh the benefits of being a bit faster in a pdk. Thats because I like to hone the skill of gearchange and balance together.

The trick is to use both lanes

I have only ever once seen someone else drive up that hill quickly, which supports my theory that (PHers aside) pretty much nobody can engage 2nd gear at speed without a lurch (me included half the time ).

There is more too it than using both lanes, but using both is vital! I live about 6 miles from it and drive it often.

I was quickest in my G33, light weight and heaps or torque. I was going to post entry and exit speeds tro the series of bends but decided against

[Wozy68]

ORD said:

blueg33 said:

Fish hill is tricky to get right in anything! I am certain that a pdk would be quicker up there than a manual. For me though, the reward in getting a manual up there quickly would outweigh the benefits of being a bit faster in a pdk. Thats because I like to hone the skill of gearchange and balance together.

The trick is to use both lanes

I have only ever once seen someone else drive up that hill quickly, which supports my theory that (PHers aside) pretty much nobody can engage 2nd gear at speed without a lurch (me included half the time ).

I drive the Fish twice a day, everyday. In fact I once shortened a 964 by a few inches whilst finding out that ABS doesnt work in reverse whilst driving it, I've ridden up at over 120MPH (near the top, and in the days before the bypass at the btm was built) in my youth on a GSXR1000 and know of people who have died on it, in cars and on bikes.

One thing I have learn't from that hill is this. I'd never now drive fast on it, and especially not use the outside lane on the tight left hander at the top, at speed.

I've driven all over the mountain passes of Europe so I've driven roads that are like the Fish for hours, not seconds, but the Fish is one dangerous hill these days, just too much diesel about and most it seems since the mass influx of foreign lorries over the last 10 years and the surface is getting very worn in places. So just a heads up to be careful.

[mrdemon]

bcr5784 said:

I trust that is intended to be an insult - and it's just the sort of silly remark I expect from you.

I drive a Cayman S with PASM on Zeros. I have owned a 330D with sport suspension - much overrated understeered like crazy round Thruxton. Have also owned and raced a Caterham, and owned a couple of Loti, not to mention two Subarus and lots of hot hatches.

So can you actually accept there are people out there who actually have as much (more - I suspect I'm quite a bit older?) experience than you who happen to, quite reasonably, take a different view.

Now what races and championships have you won, to justify your arrogance?

I don't think me not wining a championship makes me arrogant lol, my question was serious as you keep stating you want to find 10ths

but then run P zero and run a stock geo and choose PDK to allow to you think about cornering and overtaking (your words). I ran P zero for 4 laps, had to go home as they are quite poor and sold them on before I recked them.

Think it's about time you said who you and your son are so we can have a look what race series you both do and what lap records your son holds.
maybe I'll hire your son out for my next track day for some extra tuition, as going out with a current racing driver is far better than ex race drivers who are now instructors I find, I am always looking at ways to better my self.

I don't care what people prefer or what views they have on a gear box or the tech etc etc, I just want people to admit a Manual is move involving, harder and more rewarding to drive and that some of us like to try and master the skills.
IF I just wanted to go faster I would re buy my old TTRS back which was crazy fast 40-60 in 1 second, and walked all over evo's and the like at the 30-130 events even with 100bhp less.

I can see why cars have to have PDK if they are chasing numbers, again you can go and buy a TTRS remap it and do 7 second 100mph runs
And like I quoted 40-60 in 1 second which is more than twice as fast as a Cayman or Boxtser, and even 911 turbo's

getting caught up in 10th's and tech and who won what championships means nothing to me I am afraid. because if one wants to go fast you buy a 991 turbo or a GTR both make Caymans and boxsters look stupid if you want speed.
Although if you know LH my GF would like to meet him :-p

here is a vid of my vmax day, I booked it when I had the GT3 but then turned up in my R but the TTRS guys were there
this is how silly you look in a Cayman at a Vmax event over a Audi TT lol

So to say one wants PDK in a Cayman/Boxster to go fast is just a daft comment, we don't own fast cars.
And if you want automation then the GTR is great, no need to oplock as the car IS steering for you by braking which ever wheel it wants to get you back in line with ZERO driver interaction. a Modern GTR is a whole minute faster on the ring than a Cayman per lap !!

http://youtu.be/CxuTAsMLARc?list=UUgycWNeP9U0qBXX8...

Edited by mrdemon on Monday 1st December 11:44

[V8KSN]

mrdemon said:

I don't think me not wining a championship makes me arrogant lol, my question was serious as you keep stating you want to find 10ths

but then run P zero and run a stock geo and choose PDK to allow to you think about cornering and overtaking (your words). I ran P zero for 4 laps, had to go home as they are quite poor and sold them on before I recked them.

Think it's about time you said who you and your son are so we can have a look what race series you both do and what lap records your son holds.
maybe I'll hire your son out for my next track day for some extra tuition, as going out with a current racing driver is far better than ex race drivers who are now instructors I find, I am always looking at ways to better my self.

I don't care what people prefer or what views they have on a gear box or the tech etc etc, I just want people to admit a Manual is move involving, harder and more rewarding to drive and that some of us like to try and master the skills.
IF I just wanted to go faster I would re buy my old TTRS back which was crazy fast 40-60 in 1 second, and walked all over evo's and the like at the 30-130 events even with 100bhp less.

I can see why cars have to have PDK if they are chasing numbers, again you can go and buy a TTRS remap it and do 7 second 100mph runs
And like I quoted 40-60 in 1 second which is more than twice as fast as a Cayman or Boxtser, and even 911 turbo's

getting caught up in 10th's and tech and who won what championships means nothing to me I am afraid. because if one wants to go fast you buy a 991 turbo or a GTR both make Caymans and boxsters look stupid if you want speed.
Although if you know LH my GF would like to meet him :-p

here is a vid of my vmax day, I booked it when I had the GT3 but then turned up in my R but the TTRS guys were there
this is how silly you look in a Cayman at a Vmax event over a Audi TT lol

So to say one wants PDK in a Cayman/Boxster to go fast is just a daft comment, we don't own fast cars.

http://youtu.be/CxuTAsMLARc?list=UUgycWNeP9U0qBXX8...

PDK is faster on the track than a manual will ever be. Less involving in my view but faster so if you are chasing lap times it will help.

mrdemon said:

Think it's about time you said who you and your son are so we can have a look what race series you both do and what lap records your son holds.

Why?

mrdemon said:

... going out with a current racing driver is far better than ex race drivers who are now instructors I find..

What is the difference between the two? I would have thought that a 'skilled hand' would be able to impart or teach the same principles regardless if they are current or not.

mrdemon said:

I just want people to admit a Manual is move involving, harder and more rewarding to drive and that some of us like to try and master the skills.

Good luck with that one!

[ORD]

Using the words "Audi TT" positively in a thread about driver involvement is too ironic...

"PDK is rubbish because if you really want to lose your licence while being bored stless in an overboosted girl's car, get an Audi TTRS!"

[mrdemon]

replace TTRS with GTR then, imo the steering in a new POrsche is no better than a Audi now any way.
the new MK3 TT might even feel better than the 981 in steering feel lol.

As normal my TTRS ran a custom geo with custom ARB's and set up. It was the best it was going to be for feel.

It was a fast A to B car, people don't want involvement it seems but want to go fast.
TTRS and GTR are great at doing that and the fun bit is the fast bit, it just wears thin after a while once you get board of the speed aspect.

If people want automation to go faster then I would like to know why people just don't buy GTR's because as I stated gaining 2/10th in a 300bhp Boxster is NOT going fast is it ?

People must choose a PDK Boxster/Cayman for a reason just like the people who seem more into driving for involvement choose manual over PDK.

[bcr5784]

mrdemon said:

I don't think me not wining a championship makes me arrogant lol, my question was serious as you keep stating you want to find 10ths

but then run P zero and run a stock geo and choose PDK to allow to you think about cornering and overtaking (your words). I ran P zero for 4 laps, had to go home as they are quite poor and sold them on before I recked them.

Think it's about time you said who you and your son are so we can have a look what race series you both do and what lap records your son holds.
maybe I'll hire your son out for my next track day for some extra tuition, as going out with a current racing driver is far better than ex race drivers who are now instructors I find, I am always looking at ways to better my self.

PM me if you are seriously interested and I'll point you to his website.

[mrdemon]

PDK is faster on the track than a manual will ever be. Less involving in my view but faster so if you are chasing lap times it will help.

mrdemon said:
Think it's about time you said who you and your son are so we can have a look what race series you both do and what lap records your son holds.
Why?

mrdemon said:
... going out with a current racing driver is far better than ex race drivers who are now instructors I find..
What is the difference between the two? I would have thought that a 'skilled hand' would be able to impart or teach the same principles regardless if they are current or not.


mrdemon said:
I just want people to admit a Manual is move involving, harder and more rewarding to drive and that some of us like to try and master the skills.
Good luck with that one! biggrin




:-)
Always nice to know who one is speaking too don't you think esp if we have some one who holds some track lap records, who better to then go out with.

I just think Current race drivers have that edge, I have been out with many an instructor and just find current racers help me better than past racers they just seem to be faster.

It's not like we are novices any more, I have been doing track days for 20 odd years and I am now 45 years old.
if experience = miles then I have done >800,000 miles in over 50 of my own cars and another 20 company cars.

IF experience is "how many championships I have won" then I am screwed :-)

Just starting to gell now lol, or the main issue, after a Lotus you try and find a better cars which feels like a lotus.

It's very hard finding a car you can use every day, but which is fun and offers great feel. hence owning so many.

I have loved most of my cars for different reasons, but my current cars are great all rounders.

[mrdemon]

bcr5784 said:

PM me if you are seriously interested and I'll point you to his website.

done :-)

[blueg33]

Wozy68 said:

ORD said:

blueg33 said:

Fish hill is tricky to get right in anything! I am certain that a pdk would be quicker up there than a manual. For me though, the reward in getting a manual up there quickly would outweigh the benefits of being a bit faster in a pdk. Thats because I like to hone the skill of gearchange and balance together.

The trick is to use both lanes

I have only ever once seen someone else drive up that hill quickly, which supports my theory that (PHers aside) pretty much nobody can engage 2nd gear at speed without a lurch (me included half the time ).

I drive the Fish twice a day, everyday. In fact I once shortened a 964 by a few inches whilst finding out that ABS doesnt work in reverse whilst driving it, I've ridden up at over 120MPH (near the top, and in the days before the bypass at the btm was built) in my youth on a GSXR1000 and know of people who have died on it, in cars and on bikes.

One thing I have learn't from that hill is this. I'd never now drive fast on it, and especially not use the outside lane on the tight left hander at the top, at speed.

I've driven all over the mountain passes of Europe so I've driven roads that are like the Fish for hours, not seconds, but the Fish is one dangerous hill these days, just too much diesel about and most it seems since the mass influx of foreign lorries over the last 10 years and the surface is getting very worn in places. So just a heads up to be careful.

I tend to only drive it early in the morning when there is very little about. These days there are lots of bikers being a bit daft (its all relative). I actually prefer the hill from Toddington towards Ford, its slower but more challenging

[ORD]

Wozy68 said:

I drive the Fish twice a day, everyday. In fact I once shortened a 964 by a few inches whilst finding out that ABS doesnt work in reverse whilst driving it, I've ridden up at over 120MPH (near the top, and in the days before the bypass at the btm was built) in my youth on a GSXR1000 and know of people who have died on it, in cars and on bikes.

One thing I have learn't from that hill is this. I'd never now drive fast on it, and especially not use the outside lane on the tight left hander at the top, at speed.

I've driven all over the mountain passes of Europe so I've driven roads that are like the Fish for hours, not seconds, but the Fish is one dangerous hill these days, just too much diesel about and most it seems since the mass influx of foreign lorries over the last 10 years and the surface is getting very worn in places. So just a heads up to be careful.

A kind warning. I certainly wouldn't want to drive quickly down that road, and I don't take any risks on the way up. The surface is mostly fine compared to the rest of the roads around there, which are horrific. By "fine", I mean "Looks like a road and sort of feels like one".

[Wozy68]

ORD said:

The surface is mostly fine compared to the rest of the roads around there, which are horrific. By "fine", I mean "Looks like a road and sort of feels like one".

I can tell you know the area well then.

Edited by Wozy68 on Monday 1st December 14:23

[blueg33]

Wozy68 said:

ORD said:

The surface is mostly fine compared to the rest of the roads around there, which are horrific. By "fine", I mean "Looks like a road and sort of feels like one".

I can tell you do know the area well then.

Can be a dit dicey in the autumn withthe trees overhanging the top 3rd. I dont think I have ever been down the hill fast its normally full of tourists learning about brake fade....

[bcr5784]

mrdemon said:

done :-)

No sign of it in my inbox.

[mrdemon]

check junk email :-) BT have also been having DNS issues all day.

[bcr5784]

mrdemon said:

check junk email :-) BT have also been having DNS issues all day.

Not there either.

[mollytherocker]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

BOOM!

It would be great to think that this would silence the 'because F1 init' crowd, but Sadly it wont.