Best value for money Porsche GT car

[JayK12]

This 991.1 GT3 looks good value? http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2018...

Can see them being 100K soon.

[MDL111]

out of curiosity, what's the deal with the GT3 engine being a race engine? Isn't the standard/unchanged GT3 engine only used in Cup cars?

If so, then isn't that like saying every 8-cylinder Ferrari (Challenge series) and V10 Lambo (Super Trofeo or whatever it is called) has a race engine.

[FTW]

MDL111 said:

out of curiosity, what's the deal with the GT3 engine being a race engine? Isn't the standard/unchanged GT3 engine only used in Cup cars?

If so, then isn't that like saying every 8-cylinder Ferrari (Challenge series) and V10 Lambo (Super Trofeo or whatever it is called) has a race engine.

I believe the original engine was developed for the race car and it then made its way into the GT3 road car. From then on the engine development was shared between the road and race cars with common parts being used in both. E.G 997 GT3 RS 4.0 used the crank from the 4.0L 997 RSR.

No doubt there is a level of marketing involved, because the same could be said for the Renault Clio Cup....

[RT964]

JayK12 said:

This 991.1 GT3 looks good value? http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2018...

Can see them being 100K soon.

That one has been for sale since at least the start of this year (as have quite a few gen 1 cars - the Wolverhampton OPC car has been for sale since this time last year and the price has barely changed). The gen 1 market seems to be holding up at £105k and upwards price-wise (although there have been a couple of LHD ones for £95k ish). Will they go under £100k ? Probably already are if you are a serious buyer with cash waiting ...

Also looks like the overs market for the gen 2 is already cooling quite quickly as well - £160k-£170k will give you a nice selection of options now compared to the £185k-ish you'd have needed a few months back. Suspect the price is probably being influenced by the sheer number of them on the OPC site that have been p/x'd for an RS.

[TDT]

RT964 said:

Also looks like the overs market for the gen 2 is already cooling quite quickly as well - £160k-£170k will give you a nice selection of options now compared to the £185k-ish you'd have needed a few months back. Suspect the price is probably being influenced by the sheer number of them on the OPC site that have been p/x'd for an RS.

Been said 101 times i know.. but this is a shame and a shambles situation.
£30k or £40k profits for pretty much nothing.

[MDL111]

FTW said:

MDL111 said:

out of curiosity, what's the deal with the GT3 engine being a race engine? Isn't the standard/unchanged GT3 engine only used in Cup cars?

If so, then isn't that like saying every 8-cylinder Ferrari (Challenge series) and V10 Lambo (Super Trofeo or whatever it is called) has a race engine.

I believe the original engine was developed for the race car and it then made its way into the GT3 road car. From then on the engine development was shared between the road and race cars with common parts being used in both. E.G 997 GT3 RS 4.0 used the crank from the 4.0L 997 RSR.

No doubt there is a level of marketing involved, because the same could be said for the Renault Clio Cup....

Thanks - I was looking more at the 991 onwards engines as opposed the Mezger cars.
Btw I love the engine in my Clio - entire car is so much fun

[JayK12]

woollyjoe said:

MDL111 said:

out of curiosity, what's the deal with the GT3 engine being a race engine? Isn't the standard/unchanged GT3 engine only used in Cup cars?

If so, then isn't that like saying every 8-cylinder Ferrari (Challenge series) and V10 Lambo (Super Trofeo or whatever it is called) has a race engine.

Apologies if I've misunderstood the question, but I'll have a go...

Usually there is a connection between the race cars and the road and engine being main part. ,

My personal interpretation is that the 991.1 GT3 engine simply wasn't good enough for motorsport and used older engine technology.

That Porsche came back with a different 4lt GT3 engine that is used in motorsport, further reinforces in my mind that the 991.1 GT3 engine wasn't worth developing.

I think a big difference between motorsport and GT road cars is the customer needs. Ultimately, customers buying a motorsport car need them to deliver much more than road cars - significantly more, and this is why the association is important, because you can sell the capability to a road user, regardless if they use it.

RE the comment regarding Lambo and Ferrari, because the entry point into ownership is at a price point higher than a Porsche GT car, the discussion whether they are aren't is moot.

the 991.1 GT3 is a great car, but ultimately, it's not tested in motorsport and the Mezger engine had a reputation for a reason, even if you didn't drive it hard enough. That mattered because it affects desirability.

What are the differences the 991.1 and 991.2 GT3 engines?

[JayK12]

woollyjoe said:

JayK12 said:

What are the differences the 991.1 and 991.2 GT3 engines?

Everything by the sounds of it...

Matt Prior:

...don’t think it’s just the 4.0 GT3 RS or 911 R engine bolted into a GT3.

If anything, it’s all but identical to the latest 911 Cup car’s engine. There is a different crankshaft, with bigger seals, it’s stiffer and it has oil channelling through it. There are new pistons, with different liners and an ever more slippery coating on them.

And, reputedly most significant, there are no longer hydraulic valve adjusters inside a new head design, which reduces the oil pressure you need to lubricate them.

Apparently, new materials used mean that the valves won’t go out of adjustment even if you run one on a dyno, as Porsche has, for 200,000 miles, so they say.

Thanks, on road or track to the driver is there much difference in feel and characteristics?

[Porsche911R]

JayK12 said:

Thanks, on road or track to the driver is there much difference in feel and characteristics?

more torque though the whole range, the olds ones a 3.8 In the normal 991.1 GT3 remember vs 4.0.
What I was shocked with was the oils upto temp in 2 miles.

both fast cars 476ps vs 500ps, 440NM @ 6250 vs 460NM @6k Anglesey International GP new ones 3 seconds faster.

For me it's the return of the Manual and Steering with feel, it's not all about the engine, it's how you feel driving the car or should I say how the car feels.

Bit like a Cayman S vs the R, 991.1 GT3 vs 991.2 GT3. just a tiny bit better every where which then comes into a complete package to make a really great car over just a good one.

[isaldiri]

woollyjoe said:

My personal interpretation is that the 991.1 GT3 engine simply wasn't good enough for motorsport and used older engine technology.

That Porsche came back with a different 4lt GT3 engine that is used in motorsport, further reinforces in my mind that the 991.1 GT3 engine wasn't worth developing.

You do actually realise that the new 4l in the .2gt3 is just a development of the 3.8 in the .1? Solid valvetrain does not mean it's a miraculous new engine that throws away the previous one with hydraulic lifters.

[Fl0pp3r]

isaldiri said:

woollyjoe said:

My personal interpretation is that the 991.1 GT3 engine simply wasn't good enough for motorsport and used older engine technology.

That Porsche came back with a different 4lt GT3 engine that is used in motorsport, further reinforces in my mind that the 991.1 GT3 engine wasn't worth developing.

You do actually realise that the new 4l in the .2gt3 is just a development of the 3.8 in the .1? Solid valvetrain does not mean it's a miraculous new engine that throws away the previous one with hydraulic lifters.

To be fair I’m not sure anyone except Porsche knows that guv’nor - for sure they won’t have binned everything from the 991.1 but the impression I got was that the gen2/cup engine is more than a gen1 with a fixed valve train, piston coatings etc - I thought it was a new design entirely. One day we’ll get the inside story no doubt.....

[GT4RS]

woollyjoe said:

isaldiri said:

woollyjoe said:

My personal interpretation is that the 991.1 GT3 engine simply wasn't good enough for motorsport and used older engine technology.

That Porsche came back with a different 4lt GT3 engine that is used in motorsport, further reinforces in my mind that the 991.1 GT3 engine wasn't worth developing.

You do actually realise that the new 4l in the .2gt3 is just a development of the 3.8 in the .1? Solid valvetrain does not mean it's a miraculous new engine that throws away the previous one with hydraulic lifters.

Why do you think the 991.2 GT3 engine is development of the 991.1 GT3 engine. I'm told and read the opposite. according to Porsche conversation I had at Goodwood and Total 911 magazine, the 991.1 GT3 has more in common with the C2S engine and the 991.2 Gt3 has little to do with previous engines.

This video explains the differences in the new rs engine over the old rs engine.

Obviously the new rs has further tweaks over the new standard gt3 but the basics are the same.

The engine in the gen 2 is an updated version of the gen 1, hopefully without the problems!

[TDT]

GT4RS said:

This video explains the differences in the new rs engine over the old rs engine.

Obviously the new rs has further tweaks over the new standard gt3 but the basics are the same.

The engine in the gen 2 is an updated version of the gen 1, hopefully without the problems!

Where's the link buddy?

[isaldiri]

woollyjoe said:

Why do you think the 991.2 GT3 engine is development of the 991.1 GT3 engine. I'm told and read the opposite. according to Porsche conversation I had at Goodwood and Total 911 magazine, the 991.1 GT3 has more in common with the C2S engine and the 991.2 Gt3 has little to do with previous engines.

Marketing clearly works. Do you seriously think Porsche are going to design and build a brand new NA engine not closely related to anything else when their entire range outside of the GT cars is now turbo?

Look at the engine part numbers, the .2 gt3 is still very much a 9A1 variant which will have probably much the same in common with the c2s engine as the .1gt3 engine. The important bits are the changed bits of course and the new engine obviously has further improvements but it is not a brand new engine design.

[Fl0pp3r]

[isaldiri]

woollyjoe said:

I suppose all engines since the DFI are "closely related" in non SME language, but that isn't what I'm talking about. You say it is marketing, and the company that make the cars call it engineering. Shared parts don't make an engine a development of the other. Just economics.

I'm asking why, because you're contradicting Porsche with words like "probably much the same" and asking me to look at "engine part numbers". I'm just asking for a reasonable explanation, not disagreeing, although i have no reason to doubt what Porsche and journalists say.

I can only repeat - just take a look at the Porsche parts catalogue and decide for yourself what actually has changed. The MA175/176 in the 991.1 GT3 and RS can't be that different if it can share common if updated parts and technical illustrations with the new MA177 .2 gt3 engine on the same parts catalogue. What has obviously changed in the .2 gt3 are added oiling elements but a new oil pump design and added crankshaft oiling supply does not imo make an engine have 'little to do' with the old one.

[MDL111]

isaldiri said:

woollyjoe said:

Why do you think the 991.2 GT3 engine is development of the 991.1 GT3 engine. I'm told and read the opposite. according to Porsche conversation I had at Goodwood and Total 911 magazine, the 991.1 GT3 has more in common with the C2S engine and the 991.2 Gt3 has little to do with previous engines.

Marketing clearly works. Do you seriously think Porsche are going to design and build a brand new NA engine not closely related to anything else when their entire range outside of the GT cars is now turbo?

Look at the engine part numbers, the .2 gt3 is still very much a 9A1 variant which will have probably much the same in common with the c2s engine as the .1gt3 engine. The important bits are the changed bits of course and the new engine obviously has further improvements but it is not a brand new engine design.

back on topic - that is btw kinda why I think the CGT is among the best value for money Porsches you can buy (ignoring investment value). You can't get anywhere close to the CGT by changing/modfying a cheaper car in the lineup - while arguably every 911 experience from 2.7 RS to 991 GT2 RS can be replicated to a large extent by making modifications to a lower priced model.
Also not many other cars that are carbon tub and manual and all I can think of are much more expensive (F1, F50, Zonda) apart from maybe the XJR-15, but those are so rare that it is tough to find one for sale/establish real trading prices. Having said that, I am not sure if I'd pick an XJR or a CGT if I had the spare cash.

[JayK12]

Porsche911R said:

JayK12 said:

Thanks, on road or track to the driver is there much difference in feel and characteristics?

more torque though the whole range, the olds ones a 3.8 In the normal 991.1 GT3 remember vs 4.0.
What I was shocked with was the oils upto temp in 2 miles.

both fast cars 476ps vs 500ps, 440NM @ 6250 vs 460NM @6k Anglesey International GP new ones 3 seconds faster.

For me it's the return of the Manual and Steering with feel, it's not all about the engine, it's how you feel driving the car or should I say how the car feels.

Bit like a Cayman S vs the R, 991.1 GT3 vs 991.2 GT3. just a tiny bit better every where which then comes into a complete package to make a really great car over just a good one.

3 seconds is a fair chunk!! - Anyhow, you beat my time yet?!

[Porsche911R]

JayK12 said:

3 seconds is a fair chunk!! - Anyhow, you beat my time yet?!

Torque gets lap times, what's strange is every one wants to put the new GT3 up vs the last RS 4.0 (which is still slower) but it should be going up vs the normal 3.8 GT3 and then you see a bigger difference. and no 1.16.2 , you have me on that :-(

[JayK12]

Porsche911R said:

JayK12 said:

3 seconds is a fair chunk!! - Anyhow, you beat my time yet?!

Torque gets lap times, what's strange is every one wants to put the new GT3 up vs the last RS 4.0 (which is still slower) but it should be going up vs the normal 3.8 GT3 and then you see a bigger difference. and no 1.16.2 , you have me on that :-(

A friend traded in his GT3 RS .1 for a .2 GT3 and love it, says the turn in and engine are way better.

Are you up for Donny on 13th August? Evening?

Ah man, that challenge was fun!