718 GT4 on the Ring (Warning... Shmee content)
Discussion
Royal Jelly said:
I think you might be. PDK is far, far easier to drive fast, obviously.
The argument from some that things happen quicker because you’re going faster is laughable. You’re going ‘slightly faster’, not twice the speed
Well, laughable or not and speaking for myself only obviously so perhaps it's different for you but 'things happening quicker' is something I definitely find to be an issue when attempting to be driving a bit faster. It certainly isn't a case of needing to go at 'twice the speed' either. For example, I am reasonably confident I can fairly consistently do laps at say a second and definitely a second and a half slower laps than a 'best effort' lap where I am having to concentrate very hard much more easily and that's what i mean as 'things happening faster' at higher speeds.The argument from some that things happen quicker because you’re going faster is laughable. You’re going ‘slightly faster’, not twice the speed
while doing the same laptime at a track would (obviously for most) be easier in a dual clutch than manual, if one were to drive say a second or two per lap faster than in said manual that difference in 'being easier' would narrow. A lot. And I'm really not attempting to be suggesting one gearbox is better than another either as I don't have a particular beef either way.
isaldiri said:
Well, laughable or not and speaking for myself only obviously so perhaps it's different for you but 'things happening quicker' is something I definitely find to be an issue when attempting to be driving a bit faster. It certainly isn't a case of needing to go at 'twice the speed' either. For example, I am reasonably confident I can fairly consistently do laps at say a second and definitely a second and a half slower laps than a 'best effort' lap where I am having to concentrate very hard much more easily and that's what i mean as 'things happening faster' at higher speeds.
while doing the same laptime at a track would (obviously for most) be easier in a dual clutch than manual, if one were to drive say a second or two per lap faster than in said manual that difference in 'being easier' would narrow. A lot. And I'm really not attempting to be suggesting one gearbox is better than another either as I don't have a particular beef either way.
I’m not entirely sure I follow what you’re saying, but it doesn’t matter. We’re all different. For me, a ‘max effort’ lap in a manual would be easy for me to beat in a PDK. while doing the same laptime at a track would (obviously for most) be easier in a dual clutch than manual, if one were to drive say a second or two per lap faster than in said manual that difference in 'being easier' would narrow. A lot. And I'm really not attempting to be suggesting one gearbox is better than another either as I don't have a particular beef either way.
Anyhow, this has the potential to drift. No beef here. I think the Cayman manual is an absolute peach, and I wouldn’t swap it for a PDK, in no small part because of what I use the car for.
The PDK is also brilliant, and there’s little wonder why they outsell manuals.
To me it’s as binary as the Boxster or Cayman thread. If you want a convertible, buy the Boxster. If you want a manual (and I suspect most will know that they do), then don’t get the PDK! Just like that thread, both options are excellent.
Royal Jelly said:
I’m not entirely sure I follow what you’re saying, but it doesn’t matter. We’re all different. For me, a ‘max effort’ lap in a manual would be easy for me to beat in a PDK.
And I'm just attempting (clearly rather badly) to point out one would likely find a 'max effort' lap in a dual clutch fairly similar in difficulty to drive as a 'max effort' lap in a manual. One would in both cases be attempting to drive each car as quickly as possible irrespective of the difference in absolute pace and that wouldn't be 'easy' in either case.isaldiri said:
And I'm just attempting (clearly rather badly) to point out one would likely find a 'max effort' lap in a dual clutch fairly similar in difficulty to drive as a 'max effort' lap in a manual. One would in both cases be attempting to drive each car as quickly as possible irrespective of the difference in absolute pace and that wouldn't be 'easy' in either case.
I find it very hard you can say this !the manual cars driven by Pro's on track can just about do the same lap times if not the same at some tracks.
to do that you need a lot more skill to pilot the manual to match the PDK track time and there is a lot more to do under braking in the manual.
https://youtu.be/7xyiT3-28os
watch from 2 minutes the chat about PDK.
to quote Randy
"I hate that PDK" it gives every one the skills to drive like a pro, why you keep saying a manual is easy as PDK is just odd.
the next line is "you just put in in Auto and it does every thing I would do perfectly"
DavidLankaster said:
I find it very hard you can say this !
the manual cars driven by Pro's on track can just about do the same lap times if not the same at some tracks.
to do that you need a lot more skill to pilot the manual to match the PDK track time and there is a lot more to do under braking in the manual.
https://youtu.be/7xyiT3-28os
watch from 2 minutes the chat about PDK.
to quote Randy
"I hate that PDK" it gives every one the skills to drive like a pro, why you keep saying a manual is easy as PDK is just odd.
the next line is "you just put in in Auto and it does every thing I would do perfectly"
And the next line was "it doesn't tell you how to brake or give turn in".the manual cars driven by Pro's on track can just about do the same lap times if not the same at some tracks.
to do that you need a lot more skill to pilot the manual to match the PDK track time and there is a lot more to do under braking in the manual.
https://youtu.be/7xyiT3-28os
watch from 2 minutes the chat about PDK.
to quote Randy
"I hate that PDK" it gives every one the skills to drive like a pro, why you keep saying a manual is easy as PDK is just odd.
the next line is "you just put in in Auto and it does every thing I would do perfectly"
Whats this "Pilot s
te" that you mention?Melvynr said:
And the next line was "it doesn't tell you how to brake or give turn in".
you brake at the same place in each car if you want to be fast, the issue here is Auto drivers don't seem to have a clue what it takes to drive fast in a manual car and manual drivers don't drive fast enough and say crap like "it's just as easy" :-)DavidLankaster said:
you brake at the same place in each car if you want to be fast, the issue here is Auto drivers don't seem to have a clue what it takes to drive fast in a manual car and manual drivers don't drive fast enough and say crap like "it's just as easy" :-)
Not the same braking places at all, the pdk is half a second quicker to 60 and prob 1 second quicker to the ton, I don't track but am guessing that is a lot of difference.What I see on this blog is a few people thinking the manual is the be-all and end-all of GT motors, especially coming to resale value which is nonsense.
As far as driving fast goes, I drive to my limits and not the limits of the car and it does not matter to me if a guy overtakes me in a manual, he's prob a better driver than I am at speed.
The manual box in these 991 GT cars looks excellent, nice short throw with a stiff spring. Enjoy it
DavidLankaster said:
Melvynr said:
And the next line was "it doesn't tell you how to brake or give turn in".
you brake at the same place in each car if you want to be fast, the issue here is Auto drivers don't seem to have a clue what it takes to drive fast in a manual car and manual drivers don't drive fast enough and say crap like "it's just as easy" :-)It seems to be an issue that’s getting conflated with subjective opinions about manual v PDK
Facts:
- PDK is faster
- PDK means less to do for any driver, so braking can be done later
- for a non-racing driver, the marginal difference between PDK and manual is greater because only the best drivers will be able to do as much during a braking zone, as quickly, as a computer can
I have both manuals and PDK for track. I chose PDK for the GT4 because I wanted to go faster in relative safety
I use manual cars for UK tracks purely out of preference, but a PDK derivative of any car would be faster
Melvynr said:
Not the same braking places at all, the pdk is half a second quicker to 60 and prob 1 second quicker to the ton, I don't track but am guessing that is a lot of difference.
Launch control is the primaey reason PDK is quicker to accelerate from standing. Once rolling, there's very little in it between both gearboxes.In fact, if you look at the stats for the GT4 from Porsche, the manual car starts to claw back time if the drag race continues.
dashobbit said:
You brake later in a PDK, because there’s less to do
Not sure I agree with this. I think the main reason PDK is quicker and easier to lap with is because it gives you the same gear change, every gear change (no human error) and the consistency of speed of the change keeps the car more settled by minimising additional weight transfer from the charge in addition to that given via braking.Twinfan said:
Melvynr said:
Not the same braking places at all, the pdk is half a second quicker to 60 and prob 1 second quicker to the ton, I don't track but am guessing that is a lot of difference.
Launch control is the primaey reason PDK is quicker to accelerate from standing. Once rolling, there's very little in it between both gearboxes.In fact, if you look at the stats for the GT4 from Porsche, the manual car starts to claw back time if the drag race continues.
Both are great boxes and down to personal preference.
Twinfan said:
dashobbit said:
You brake later in a PDK, because there’s less to do
Not sure I agree with this. I think the main reason PDK is quicker and easier to lap with is because it gives you the same gear change, every gear change (no human error) and the consistency of speed of the change keeps the car more settled by minimising additional weight transfer from the charge in addition to that given via braking.You have a theoretical optimum braking zone of a specific distance
Unless you can brake optimally with one hand on the wheel and heel+toe as you down shift, it’s always going to be a longer braking zone with a manual than a PDK
This discussion seems to be diverging, so to clarify the point I was making:
- PDKs are faster (more torque from extra gear plus computer shifts quicker than a person), plus as I mentioned, you can brake later
- PDKs are safer. Braking and turning and changing gear with two hands on the wheel is safer than having one hand on the wheel
- at the ring, for me, I wanted to be able to go faster with as much relative safety as possible. Hence I chose the PDK, as it is objectively true that the PDK is faster, and objectively true it’s safer
The subjective element doesn’t come into this for my use case
The only point I would make is that anyone buying a GT4 for the road is unable to legally use the car to anything like it’s potential. Short shifting seems somewhat pointless to me
Thus it’s a track car. Using the car on track with a manual to be more ‘engaging’ … for me, that’s an odd choice, as a much more engaging experience would be had on track from something like a caterham or atom
I bought one as they are perfectly comfortable to drive 500mi to the Nurburgring, go round it as many times as you like without breaking, then drive back. I wouldn’t buy one for any other reason as for me, there are more appropriate cars out there for other reasons
dashobbit said:
You do brake later in a PDK. The traces prove this, and it is easy to see why…
You have a theoretical optimum braking zone of a specific distance
Unless you can brake optimally with one hand on the wheel and heel+toe as you down shift, it’s always going to be a longer braking zone with a manual than a PDK
This discussion seems to be diverging, so to clarify the point I was making:
- PDKs are faster (more torque from extra gear plus computer shifts quicker than a person), plus as I mentioned, you can brake later
- PDKs are safer. Braking and turning and changing gear with two hands on the wheel is safer than having one hand on the wheel
- at the ring, for me, I wanted to be able to go faster with as much relative safety as possible. Hence I chose the PDK, as it is objectively true that the PDK is faster, and objectively true it’s safer
The subjective element doesn’t come into this for my use case
The only point I would make is that anyone buying a GT4 for the road is unable to legally use the car to anything like it’s potential. Short shifting seems somewhat pointless to me
Thus it’s a track car. Using the car on track with a manual to be more ‘engaging’ … for me, that’s an odd choice, as a much more engaging experience would be had on track from something like a caterham or atom
I bought one as they are perfectly comfortable to drive 500mi to the Nurburgring, go round it as many times as you like without breaking, then drive back. I wouldn’t buy one for any other reason as for me, there are more appropriate cars out there for other reasons
If 2 identical GT3s , one a manual and the other pdk are travelling at 130mph in 4th gear coming into a 115mph max corner, the braking zone is exactly the same with no car being able to change down a gear?You have a theoretical optimum braking zone of a specific distance
Unless you can brake optimally with one hand on the wheel and heel+toe as you down shift, it’s always going to be a longer braking zone with a manual than a PDK
This discussion seems to be diverging, so to clarify the point I was making:
- PDKs are faster (more torque from extra gear plus computer shifts quicker than a person), plus as I mentioned, you can brake later
- PDKs are safer. Braking and turning and changing gear with two hands on the wheel is safer than having one hand on the wheel
- at the ring, for me, I wanted to be able to go faster with as much relative safety as possible. Hence I chose the PDK, as it is objectively true that the PDK is faster, and objectively true it’s safer
The subjective element doesn’t come into this for my use case
The only point I would make is that anyone buying a GT4 for the road is unable to legally use the car to anything like it’s potential. Short shifting seems somewhat pointless to me
Thus it’s a track car. Using the car on track with a manual to be more ‘engaging’ … for me, that’s an odd choice, as a much more engaging experience would be had on track from something like a caterham or atom
I bought one as they are perfectly comfortable to drive 500mi to the Nurburgring, go round it as many times as you like without breaking, then drive back. I wouldn’t buy one for any other reason as for me, there are more appropriate cars out there for other reasons
You can legally use the full speed on German Autobaans and other places if you have the balls to do so.
Melvynr said:
If 2 identical GT3s , one a manual and the other pdk are travelling at 130mph in 4th gear coming into a 115mph max corner, the braking zone is exactly the same with no car being able to change down a gear?
You can legally use the full speed on German Autobaans and other places if you have the balls to do so.
The PDK driver can brake later. Think it throughYou can legally use the full speed on German Autobaans and other places if you have the balls to do so.
Manual: has to brake, and while braking they need to maintain pressure whilst also changing gear, and Rev match
PDK: brakes, pulls fingers
Both drivers would also be turning the wheel as they trail brake
There are data traces somewhere, I remember seeing some comparisons
But even without them - how do you think any human can do “more” in the same time as it takes to do less? It makes no sense
A race driver will be able to get the gap between both scenarios down to smaller levels
But average drivers… no chance
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