My obituary to the NA...and why I'll get over it. :D

[PhantomPH]

Just felt like posting this, since I something changed for me this weekend and I pretty much resigned myself to the inevitable future of not just Porsche, but vehicles in general.

First of all, this is NOT an anti-718 post. It was a 718 that was the final straw in fact.

In personal experience, turbo'd motors suck. Now, I'm not saying they all suck...this is just my opinion...but I really have decided I don't like them. Turbos have become a workaround for legislation - hamstring an NA lump in order to meet the rules and then bolt on a turbo so the power does not suffer. Which means as soon as the turbo is working, your fuel economy goes down the pan. My DD is a new S5 which does 24mpg if I drive like a granny. The dash is always telling me to lift, the transmission coasts etc etc, but 24mpg is where it is (yes, I get the weight difference but the basic point stands, IMO). The engine is unresponsive and relies on a huge slug of boost further up the rev range before it really goes like a train (and it does) - but by the time you really feel what she's got, you are backing off the gas because the numbers on the dash are highly illegal...so what's the fking point? You're not telling me that Audi could not have got the same 350bhp from the V6 on it's own, without the need for the turbo - placing the power in a much more usable place in the rev range and improving engine response? But no - not if they wanted to meet the letter of the law.

I didn't buy the Audi to save money on fuel over my CGTS - but I didn't expect it to be c.17% worse. That's a decent amount when you see what that means overall.

Anyway, that's the way things are now. It's about 10 minutes until everything is electric/electric-hybrid anyway, so who cares?

So why the post in a Porsche forum?

Well, as a formed 981 CGTS owner, I miss the sound, handling...well, everything about my car now I don't have it. But yesterday I saw a 718 Boxster parked alongside other reasonable cars (not to sound like a snob, but it wasn't alongside Fiestas and Corsas...it was in mid-to-upper market family car company) and it looked absolutely stunning. It was in a deep yellow and looked the absolute business.

And that's what a huge amount of Porsche buyers are buying - that look. That curb appeal. The badge, the style...not the engine.

I love the looks of the 911, Boxster and Cayman lines. The proportions of the Cayman and Boxster in particular really work. And I know from experience that not all 911's are a great drive (I was HUGELY disappointed by the 997S PDK), but that a whole bunch of them are just incredible going down a winding road.

And that's what I will buy. I will buy the 911/Cayman that gets down the road like I expect it to - and of course it's going to be turbocharged. That's just the way of the world.

I watched TG last night and that McLaren (as great as it is) sounded absolutely balls. For a V8, that was uninspiring and soulless. Compared to the other two, there was no competition on sound - they won. I genuinely believe the 981 CGTS is one of the best sounding cars you can get for almost any price and there is nothing in the price range that comes close for aural appeal...but those days have gone.

Much like my folks still preferring vinyl to Spotify, the world has moved on...so I must too.

If you have a 981 CGTS don't ever sell it. If you have a 718 then you have one of the most perfectly positioned cars I can think of right now. They handle incredibly well and they look fricken fantastic in any company - without being overly ostentatious.

So well done, automotive world - you've broken me. But i'll get over it.

[PhantomPH]

cypriot said:

very well written, and I agree. I would add that the problem are modern turbos, rather than all turbo cars. old turbo cars were turboed for performance, whereas modern ones are turboed for economy, and so their characteristics are very different.

As a former 981 CGTS and 981 Spyder owner, they are cracking cars and very special given their price point. However, I did move on to a lotus evora 400, which also sounds amazing, but blows the porkers out of the water for ride/handling/steering/specialness. Similar money as well. So there are still some "old school" cars being made for the few people who care about the power delivery of an engine combined with a great chassis, you just have to go slightly off the beaten track now.

I mean, look at the new TVR? If they have a proper chassis setup, then combined with its NA engine, it will be a cracking car. Fingers crossed. I suppose what I am trying to say is that the desire for the kind of power delivery that will disappear in modern turbo cars will mean looking at more niche car makers, so it won't completely disappear...

Yes, the caveat should have been that I was referring to modern turbo vehicles, not the older ones. Very fair observation.

I had a good hard look at Lotus, but will happily admit I was swayed by overall quality concerns - both in terms of the 'special' feeling of the interior and the general build quality. I know build quality concerns are largely not an issue these days, but I do like to feel like I'm in something nice...so the CGTS won out for me in that area too.

You see, that's another issue...I have looked at the new TVR. And I never want to look at it again. Without doubt there are currently still people doing 'things' - even Ford with the V8 Mustang - but my observation is that right here and right now, the N/A sportscar engine is pretty much gone. It's a genuine shame, but such is life.

I saw people congratulating McLaren on the 'amazing sound' of their 2018 F1 car. Huh?? It sounds like an angry wasp playing a kazoo through a megaphone. How is that nice???? Then I realised - the commenters were of an age where they hadn't heard anything better. No V10 screaming like it was about to explode. And this is where we are right now. Of course the 718 etc will be a huge success...because that's all that most buyers know.

We are dinosaurs, ladies and gentlemen.

[PhantomPH]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Agree 100% on this. Every time I see a 570 in the metal, I tell myself that the next aim is a 570 Spider...then I hear it and my heart sinks a little.

Must be how women feel when they meet David Beckham.

[PhantomPH]

Porsche911R said:

I don't get the post as you can buy a 3k miles 981 Boxster GTS still atm for less money than a 718 GTS so if you like the 981 GTS more why spend £15k more on a 718 GTS ?

Point being that the world is changing and I'm making my peace with it as much as I can. It's not about 'what I could buy' - I know what I could buy - it's about how times they are a changing and the acceptance of that.

In a way, this is a post about a generational shift. Cars have entered a new generation and just like all other things, the people buying new in that generation will (as the excited posted above mentions) have no other frame of reference to compare against...and that's fine.It's tough for those of us with a frame of reference, because we are aware of what we perceive as being backwards steps...'its not like the old days'.

It's not always like that tho. I am kinda curious about a time when I get an NA motor that has a battery accompaniment (918 style) which should remove what I dislike about the modern turbo era.

I recently mentioned in an interview, that I was learning my skills at a time when internet access came with a huge telephone bill and if someone else in the house picked the phone up, you were cut off. A friend of mine who is in their twenties, was utterly stunned that A) I was that much older than they were and B) that that was actually a reality. So not all progress is bad. You just have to embrace the good with the bad.

[PhantomPH]

CaineIsCarter said:

Frankly, my new car could sound like Shane MacGowan taking a dump after 17 pints of cinzano and I wouldn’t care. It’s a stunning automobile.

Yes they really are. Congrats!

[PhantomPH]

Porsche911R said:

cypriot said:

I think the point the OP was making is not to go and buy used "better" cars, but looking to the future of sports cars. There is no point jumping on this thread to say "well just go and buy a used 9XX" as that is rather missing the point.

I am not sure there is a point, he said give up really and just buy some thing you don't really want, when really there are loads of cars to buy.

No I didn't. If you look above, at no point do I say or even suggest that people go and buy something they don't want. I was making the point you quoted which is an acceptance leading to an embracing of the future of things.

No real 'I'm right and you are wrong' element to this thread at all - it's about how I am coming round to how things are right now.

I recently sold my 1958 VW Beetle. I loved Beetles when I was younger and always wanted another one. Man, did that not live up to the memory! I expect that at some point I will purchase a 718/992 or some such and find out it's a mile better than my memory of the 981 CGTS. You never know. But now I'm open to it...well...more open.

[PhantomPH]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Agree with all of this. For me, the use of the turbo in the modern era has resulted in absolutely crap response from the engine and that's not what I want in a car - any car, not just a sports car.

Noise is noise. Some people like it, some people hate it...you're never going to win with something so rooted in personal taste. It's like when two people have an argument about if it's too hot or two cold. They are both right - for one it's too hot and for the other it's too cold. You stand a very slim chance of hitting a sweet spot where both of those people are going to be perfectly happy. Same with the sound a car makes.

[PhantomPH]

Tim bo said:

PhantomPH said:

And that's what a huge amount of Porsche buyers are buying - that look. That curb appeal. The badge, the style...not the engine.

LOL - complete opposite for me. I didn't buy my 718 CS for the curb appeal, the badge, the style; I bought it for many things, and one of the main reasons was the engine.

Two years ago now I was keen to get behind the wheel of a Cayman, I test drove a few 981 S and GTS models with a view to purchasing, was umming and ahhing about placing an order, when I heard that the new incoming Cayman 718 was to be turbo. I was delighted and held off on purchasing anything until I managed to get a test drive in a 718 BS, one of the first examples brought to showrooms in London. It was spot on for me, and I placed an order for my 718 CS shortly after.

I much prefer the shove of forced induction to the linear line of NA - I always have. Others have a different opinion - shrugs - I buy my cars for me.

Exactly mate - and so you should. My assertion was 'most'. I probably shouldn't have generalised as it's based on anecdotal evidence at best, but I think those who frequent a forum like PH probably only make up a tiny number of the Porsche buying public - and we are all driving Gods here, of course.

[PhantomPH]

Twinfan said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

This is exactly my issue too. If you want a new sports car with manual box and an NA engine you have the MX5, GT86 or Mustang as your only options. The Mustang is too big and lardy for the UK and twisty road driving (IMHO) and the GT86 feels cheap compared to a Porsche and it has a very rough engine (Mrs Twinfan had one for several years so I know them well).

I would also love a new GT3 (can't afford one) or GT4 (won't be offered one) so I really did only just catch the last train buying my 981 CGTS. It'll have to be my lifelong keeper so I'm looking at mods to make it mine

We may end up with electric hybrid being a nice option (albeit with added weight penalty). Filling in the low-rev torque with electric motors could be a great option - I'd be interested to try a Cayman/911 with that configuration, just out of curiosity!

[PhantomPH]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

That's fair.

I was really just continuing my acceptance of a life after true NA. Thinking (probably naively) that the sports car industry could continue the loophole exploitation of things like the 918 - where it can quote silly MPG and emissions figures but still have a screaming V8.

Wishful thinking, I suppose!

[PhantomPH]

Alex said:

Many people confuse revs being below the boost threshold with lag.

I don't think it's a confusion - I think it's shorthand for describing the behaviour.

Obviously for a turbo to work, it cannot make boost right from idle - up the rev range it would be hopeless. But the rest of the engine is being engineered in such a lazy way as to rely on the turbo for power figures and in the real world that just means no proper power until high in the rev range...by which time your speed is either illegal or your gearbox is out of kilter. The gearbox will have to match a behaviour in order to do what it's supposed to and I just don't think they work well in this configuration.

Nothing in the lower revs and everything up the top - and gearboxes geared to give you...well...lord knows what, when it comes to auto/pdk/semi-auto.

[PhantomPH]

Twinfan said:

Modern turbos encourage lazy low-rev driving with their easy-to-access torque, NASPs make you want to hunt down the redline. Very different characteristics.

I think each is different. My S5 has little low rev pull and that's a hulking great V6. The real pull comes up the rev range when the turbo has most effect (although if the dash is to be believed, it does start supplying boost from surprisingly low revs)

[PhantomPH]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yeah, it's a shame. Which also introduces the supercharger into this discussion - why did they not replace the Turbo? Just requirements from the engine to be able to make them effective? I also really like the sound of a supercharger. That whine sounds awesome. One of the best I can remember was from the
VXR8 Bathurst.

[PhantomPH]

DJMC said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

That seems to have hit the nail on the head. I had no issue whatsoever with my DB7's supercharged straight six (its XJS chassis is another story) but got rid of my turbo'd TTS fairly swiftly due to its annoying lag and overrun characteristics, not to mention poor fuel consumption.

Maybe there will be a turbo "scandal" to come, as with the VAG diesel one?

All sounds about right. I remember watching things where guys say, "This supercharger needs 100hp just to work" and never really bothering to think about what that actually meant beyond, "So you have to 'power' the supercharger in order to get more power in return".

[PhantomPH]

I think there has been a bit of a general 'bait and switch'-style scenario around diesels happening for a while - and we are now seeing the outcome. Remember not a million moons ago, diesel was much cheaper than petrol at the pumps. There was a subtle push to encourage people into diesel cars and stretch out that MPG. My Dad and I have talked about local air pollution being bloody awful (particularly where buses and trucks frequent) for years.

Now diesel is seemingly the devil. Surprise surprise! Don't worry, they will be back on the death of petrol as well, soon enough.

I think the American reaction is typical of the American reaction, TBH. VW owners saw the chance for a payout and they are doing all they can to get one. It's a HUGE bloody issue to them now and VW are monsters (notice they are a little less vocal and determined to get rid of guns...but I suppose guns are harmless, right?). Haha

Never underestimate the greed factor when it comes to 'uproar' in the USA. There was a chance to milk some cash out of VW and of course the most litigious society on earth is going to leap at that. Just look at the fact that more than 2,000 claimants have refused the $50,000 compensation package for their VW Rabbit that cost them next to nothing and are seeking more....

Of course harmful emissions should be kept to a minimum and every effort should be made to remove them all together. But I am almost 100% convinced that if you let the smartest minds in the automotive industry actually produce an engine the way they want without the stupid testing procedure, we would end up with a better, more efficient and more enjoyable motor under our bonnets.