Rob Dickinson on Singer (CNET video)
Discussion
Slippydiff said:
Well slippy,period you are not correct,i have run top end dampers against the clock for years,the porsche 993rs set up was the best on the 993 rs.i also run xtc for many years ,jrz,intrax,bilstein,the xtc are better than a standard 2.8rsr a little,good traction though.you can have to much adjustment and even the experts get it wrong.
My car can pull more han 1 g standing start,sadly not 2g.
The singer arches and large diameter wheels etc look plain wrong.2.8 rsr normal height is a min of 100mm for fia,for tarmac rally etc higher.The blue 2.8 is low ,or the arches are lower than standard,i would say it would handle better a little higher.
Poor welding is the only simalrity of the singer vers a 2.8 rsr,but dont get hung up on the weld if it drives well!
Porsche motorsport also run open top nuts on damper top mounts on the 993 rscs,gt2 & ,rsr.
Sorry, got to disagree with your comments on dampers. Firstly, and as with many things in this world, you get what you pay for. If you think that a standard 993 RS damper is any way comparable with a £1250 Ohlins TTX, I'm afraid you're wrong. Period.
The standard 993 RS items are "ok" in my experience, but nothing more, nothing less. KW's are a step up, but by no means as good as it gets.
If you've tried other "exotic" dampers and gone back to standard and not found there to be much of a difference, I suspect that the spring and damper rates on the "exotic dampers" were poorly chosen (most likely waaaay too stiff), or the choice of damper engineer you used to set up and adjust the dampers must have been in some way lacking.
A set of Ohlins, Motons, ExeTC's, high end Bilsteins etc, will transform and improve the chassis dynamics of pretty much any 911.
Personally I think the Singer is superb concept, it takes the 964 interior and makes it a far, far nicer place to be, it brings the performance up to 996 GT3 standards, it improves the suspension dynamics and blends old skool looks with a more modern platform featuring ABS brakes and PAS steering, add in the weight reduction with its use of CF body panels and end product is a car I have every intention of owning at some some point in the not too distant future.
As for the build quality, I think Rob and his team have done an excellent job, but there's always room for improvement. I have to admit I'm rather OCD when it comes to prep, accordingly there are several issues in the picture below that I object to :
The lack of any chamfering on the machined alloy strut top mount, along with the lack of a cap over the top mount end (even AG included these on the 964/993 RS top mounts)
The redundant threaded pins originally used for the clips to secure pipes/cables.
The frankly horrendous bead of birdsh*t welding on the turret itself.
I think the air filter set up is plain cheap and nasty (most likely makes a great noise mind), once again at this price level something more bespoke is required (personally I'd site the air cleaner assembly outside of the engine bay and duct cold air from the wheelarches.
Singer appear to be using various Rennline products (strut top mounts and footrest), no issue with that, but I don't want to see their name engraved on the components they supply, I'd either want Singer's name engraved in them, or nothing at all.
I'm not a fan of the exhaust, it looks far too 997 GT3. far better to go for the classic 2.8 RSR look imo.
The list goes on and on ....... but overall I think they're a brilliant concept that marries old school looks with far more modern mechanicals and everyday usability.
And whilst this is a great looking car :
It fails to capture the old school 2.8 RSR racer look that Singer have managed so perfectly with their car.
The cartoonish ar*e in the air look/comedy rear wheel/tyre dimensions used by the Singer may not find favour with all, but they ape the original 2.8 RSR race cars rather well.
My car can pull more han 1 g standing start,sadly not 2g.
The singer arches and large diameter wheels etc look plain wrong.2.8 rsr normal height is a min of 100mm for fia,for tarmac rally etc higher.The blue 2.8 is low ,or the arches are lower than standard,i would say it would handle better a little higher.
Poor welding is the only simalrity of the singer vers a 2.8 rsr,but dont get hung up on the weld if it drives well!
Porsche motorsport also run open top nuts on damper top mounts on the 993 rscs,gt2 & ,rsr.
Sorry, got to disagree with your comments on dampers. Firstly, and as with many things in this world, you get what you pay for. If you think that a standard 993 RS damper is any way comparable with a £1250 Ohlins TTX, I'm afraid you're wrong. Period.
The standard 993 RS items are "ok" in my experience, but nothing more, nothing less. KW's are a step up, but by no means as good as it gets.
If you've tried other "exotic" dampers and gone back to standard and not found there to be much of a difference, I suspect that the spring and damper rates on the "exotic dampers" were poorly chosen (most likely waaaay too stiff), or the choice of damper engineer you used to set up and adjust the dampers must have been in some way lacking.
A set of Ohlins, Motons, ExeTC's, high end Bilsteins etc, will transform and improve the chassis dynamics of pretty much any 911.
Personally I think the Singer is superb concept, it takes the 964 interior and makes it a far, far nicer place to be, it brings the performance up to 996 GT3 standards, it improves the suspension dynamics and blends old skool looks with a more modern platform featuring ABS brakes and PAS steering, add in the weight reduction with its use of CF body panels and end product is a car I have every intention of owning at some some point in the not too distant future.
As for the build quality, I think Rob and his team have done an excellent job, but there's always room for improvement. I have to admit I'm rather OCD when it comes to prep, accordingly there are several issues in the picture below that I object to :
The lack of any chamfering on the machined alloy strut top mount, along with the lack of a cap over the top mount end (even AG included these on the 964/993 RS top mounts)
The redundant threaded pins originally used for the clips to secure pipes/cables.
The frankly horrendous bead of birdsh*t welding on the turret itself.
I think the air filter set up is plain cheap and nasty (most likely makes a great noise mind), once again at this price level something more bespoke is required (personally I'd site the air cleaner assembly outside of the engine bay and duct cold air from the wheelarches.
Singer appear to be using various Rennline products (strut top mounts and footrest), no issue with that, but I don't want to see their name engraved on the components they supply, I'd either want Singer's name engraved in them, or nothing at all.
I'm not a fan of the exhaust, it looks far too 997 GT3. far better to go for the classic 2.8 RSR look imo.
The list goes on and on ....... but overall I think they're a brilliant concept that marries old school looks with far more modern mechanicals and everyday usability.
And whilst this is a great looking car :
It fails to capture the old school 2.8 RSR racer look that Singer have managed so perfectly with their car.
The cartoonish ar*e in the air look/comedy rear wheel/tyre dimensions used by the Singer may not find favour with all, but they ape the original 2.8 RSR race cars rather well.
If I'm paying big bucks, I'll have the welds exactly how I want them ! !
Well, looks like we're going to have to agree to differ on dampers.
Intrax seem to get mixed reviews, I've never used them, but heard some horror stories (specifically BMW related issues). JRZ ? I've driven several cars equipped with them. All were too stiffly sprung and the damping harsh (this for road use).
I've only experienced one car with Motons (a 996 GT2) it's spring rates and appeared pretty much perfectly judged for road use, suffice to say I was impressed, until the test was cut short unexpectedly.......
I appreciate it's unlikely to happen, but get a set of properly sprung and correctly damped Ohlins TTX's on a 993 RS back to back with a standard Bilstein equipped car, and I assure you the Ohlins equipped car will be faster.....
Oh yes, I'm aware the top mount caps on the RSR's etc were machined to allow quick access to the damper rod securing nut, but you'll be well aware they are race cars, and as such access for quick removal is prerequisite.
The un-machined items were fitted to the road cars for a reason, you'll be all too aware what that reason is ..... hence the Singer should have them, if not to keep the elements out, then for purely aesthetic reasons !
Ride heights ? We're in agreement on the Gulf blue 2.8, either too low or arches fitted incorrectly, but going to have to disagree on your comments regarding the Singer rear wheel/tyre/arch relationship.
Well, looks like we're going to have to agree to differ on dampers.
Intrax seem to get mixed reviews, I've never used them, but heard some horror stories (specifically BMW related issues). JRZ ? I've driven several cars equipped with them. All were too stiffly sprung and the damping harsh (this for road use). I've only experienced one car with Motons (a 996 GT2) it's spring rates and appeared pretty much perfectly judged for road use, suffice to say I was impressed, until the test was cut short unexpectedly.......
I appreciate it's unlikely to happen, but get a set of properly sprung and correctly damped Ohlins TTX's on a 993 RS back to back with a standard Bilstein equipped car, and I assure you the Ohlins equipped car will be faster.....
Oh yes, I'm aware the top mount caps on the RSR's etc were machined to allow quick access to the damper rod securing nut, but you'll be well aware they are race cars, and as such access for quick removal is prerequisite.
The un-machined items were fitted to the road cars for a reason, you'll be all too aware what that reason is ..... hence the Singer should have them, if not to keep the elements out, then for purely aesthetic reasons !
Ride heights ? We're in agreement on the Gulf blue 2.8, either too low or arches fitted incorrectly, but going to have to disagree on your comments regarding the Singer rear wheel/tyre/arch relationship.
I know from experience re the dampers,Having spent many years with them on 993 and earlier,a good knowledgable standard set up will take some beating for what ever use is chosen.
How do you compete with porsche production or race dept r&d,lots of hotrodders and racers say they know better.
The only 2 companies in my experience who have delivered what they promise and come and spend time ( interested)on set up etc,were intrax and xtc
If you have state of the art adjustable dampers and spings etc,you need to know what you are doing to get the best out of them at any given time,othewise you can go backwards.
The arches on the blue car may not be in the same place as others,some rsr and st had the arches in period fitted lower and wider than they should be ,to a standard factory car spec,correctly for there given purpose,even ducktails 20mm higher,and correct for max grip.On a closer look,it looks like its just been slammed down,looks awesome and in my view cant be competed with by the likes of singer etc.The car was restored by freisinger from memory ,and recently changed ownership.
Shame the car with the nice tig welded roll cage is not on the road yet,( if its the car i think it is) i did see it close up in a garage but not running ,not long ago.It looks good,but could do with some period detail for the effort being put into the car for me,But its the owners choice just like singer customers.
How do you compete with porsche production or race dept r&d,lots of hotrodders and racers say they know better.
The only 2 companies in my experience who have delivered what they promise and come and spend time ( interested)on set up etc,were intrax and xtc
If you have state of the art adjustable dampers and spings etc,you need to know what you are doing to get the best out of them at any given time,othewise you can go backwards.
The arches on the blue car may not be in the same place as others,some rsr and st had the arches in period fitted lower and wider than they should be ,to a standard factory car spec,correctly for there given purpose,even ducktails 20mm higher,and correct for max grip.On a closer look,it looks like its just been slammed down,looks awesome and in my view cant be competed with by the likes of singer etc.The car was restored by freisinger from memory ,and recently changed ownership.
Shame the car with the nice tig welded roll cage is not on the road yet,( if its the car i think it is) i did see it close up in a garage but not running ,not long ago.It looks good,but could do with some period detail for the effort being put into the car for me,But its the owners choice just like singer customers.
g7jhp said:
You mean it's not a 987.2 Boxster Spyder/Cayman R
nope, I would rather a 74 911S in fully restored state or a 964 RSthis is one mans view of what a 911 should be like and I don't like it, not for £300k
The Spyder and R have many flaws, so I am not blinkered at all, I could easy spend 20k on each one.
well even more with a 3.8 GTS engine in them or I would just try a RUF 3800 Coupe.
Edited by mrdemon on Thursday 13th November 14:51
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