964 engine upgrades, who is the go to?
Discussion
I'm looking to sell my 964 next May/June; however, plan B if i dont receive the offers i'm looking for, is to upgrade the engine... a little.
I'd be looking at 3.8l, ITB's or someting similar to make it worthwhile, and really special to me.
The question is, who would you choose as your go to, and more importantly why, have you a direct expericence with said company?
I'm looking to make it special, but keep the reliability I currently enjoy, in 18 years thus far, two batteries, and one crank angle sensor are all that have stopped the car, its always, key in, turn, start, and go; and I'd like to keep that kind of mindest up.
TIA.
K
I'd be looking at 3.8l, ITB's or someting similar to make it worthwhile, and really special to me.
The question is, who would you choose as your go to, and more importantly why, have you a direct expericence with said company?
I'm looking to make it special, but keep the reliability I currently enjoy, in 18 years thus far, two batteries, and one crank angle sensor are all that have stopped the car, its always, key in, turn, start, and go; and I'd like to keep that kind of mindest up.
TIA.
K
Depends where you are based. Colin Belton , Ninemeister , Warrington, built the engine in my 993 Cup RSR using a bespoke 9M exhaust and ITBs in 2009 and Richard Chambberlain CTR Developments near Cambridge has ran the car at races for me since 2011. I can thoroughly recommend both of these. Great engineers and decades of experience.
My engine was built up using a standard 3.6 964 block and has only required the usual maintenance over the past ten years. I race six or seven races a year with CSCC including Spa Franchoramps.
My engine was built up using a standard 3.6 964 block and has only required the usual maintenance over the past ten years. I race six or seven races a year with CSCC including Spa Franchoramps.
Nick Fulljames at Redtek. Ex Autofarm, worked with Cosworth F1, numerous touring car companies and within supercar engine development. His passion though and where his experience and knowledge is second to none, is with the 911 race engine and, in essence, how to get the best from each individual engine, for the purpose, whether it is for road, pleasure, track or hill climbing.
His repertoire includes the rebuild of a rare Le Mans Porsche race car and development of the XJ220 Jaguar engine. He has also had extensive experience with fine tuning engines for Jaguar, Ford, Chevrolet, Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin and Volvo and has worked for Brodie Brittain, Autofarm and Tom Walkinshaw Racing.
When it comes to his work, Nick personally builds every engine that comes into the business. Hence, each project will be under the scrutiny of Nick’s eagle eye of perfectionism. He wants you to get as much out of your engine as he would if it were his own.
Nick built a 3.8 on ITB's for a 964 for this chap :
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/704795-black...
His repertoire includes the rebuild of a rare Le Mans Porsche race car and development of the XJ220 Jaguar engine. He has also had extensive experience with fine tuning engines for Jaguar, Ford, Chevrolet, Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin and Volvo and has worked for Brodie Brittain, Autofarm and Tom Walkinshaw Racing.
When it comes to his work, Nick personally builds every engine that comes into the business. Hence, each project will be under the scrutiny of Nick’s eagle eye of perfectionism. He wants you to get as much out of your engine as he would if it were his own.
Nick built a 3.8 on ITB's for a 964 for this chap :
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/704795-black...
Slippydiff said:
Nick Fulljames at Redtek. Ex Autofarm, worked with Cosworth F1, numerous touring car companies and within supercar engine development. His passion though and where his experience and knowledge is second to none, is with the 911 race engine and, in essence, how to get the best from each individual engine, for the purpose, whether it is for road, pleasure, track or hill climbing.
His repertoire includes the rebuild of a rare Le Mans Porsche race car and development of the XJ220 Jaguar engine. He has also had extensive experience with fine tuning engines for Jaguar, Ford, Chevrolet, Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin and Volvo and has worked for Brodie Brittain, Autofarm and Tom Walkinshaw Racing.
When it comes to his work, Nick personally builds every engine that comes into the business. Hence, each project will be under the scrutiny of Nick’s eagle eye of perfectionism. He wants you to get as much out of your engine as he would if it were his own.
Nick built a 3.8 on ITB's for a 964 for this chap :
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/704795-black...
IIRC that’s Frank, think we met a couple of times at Donnington, and it’s is if I’m right; a nice build.His repertoire includes the rebuild of a rare Le Mans Porsche race car and development of the XJ220 Jaguar engine. He has also had extensive experience with fine tuning engines for Jaguar, Ford, Chevrolet, Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin and Volvo and has worked for Brodie Brittain, Autofarm and Tom Walkinshaw Racing.
When it comes to his work, Nick personally builds every engine that comes into the business. Hence, each project will be under the scrutiny of Nick’s eagle eye of perfectionism. He wants you to get as much out of your engine as he would if it were his own.
Nick built a 3.8 on ITB's for a 964 for this chap :
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/704795-black...
Thank you.
Slippydiff said:
Nick Fulljames at Redtek. Ex Autofarm, worked with Cosworth F1, numerous touring car companies and within supercar engine development. His passion though and where his experience and knowledge is second to none, is with the 911 race engine and, in essence, how to get the best from each individual engine, for the purpose, whether it is for road, pleasure, track or hill climbing.
His repertoire includes the rebuild of a rare Le Mans Porsche race car and development of the XJ220 Jaguar engine. He has also had extensive experience with fine tuning engines for Jaguar, Ford, Chevrolet, Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin and Volvo and has worked for Brodie Brittain, Autofarm and Tom Walkinshaw Racing.
When it comes to his work, Nick personally builds every engine that comes into the business. Hence, each project will be under the scrutiny of Nick’s eagle eye of perfectionism. He wants you to get as much out of your engine as he would if it were his own.
Nick built a 3.8 on ITB's for a 964 for this chap :
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/704795-black...
Henry,His repertoire includes the rebuild of a rare Le Mans Porsche race car and development of the XJ220 Jaguar engine. He has also had extensive experience with fine tuning engines for Jaguar, Ford, Chevrolet, Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin and Volvo and has worked for Brodie Brittain, Autofarm and Tom Walkinshaw Racing.
When it comes to his work, Nick personally builds every engine that comes into the business. Hence, each project will be under the scrutiny of Nick’s eagle eye of perfectionism. He wants you to get as much out of your engine as he would if it were his own.
Nick built a 3.8 on ITB's for a 964 for this chap :
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/704795-black...
I am sure someone told me Nick was no longer building engines only doing vehicle storage and has reduced his staff who have gone to another shop in Brackley.
Can’t remember who told me so apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick .
majordad said:
Depends where you are based. Colin Belton , Ninemeister , Warrington, built the engine in my 993 Cup RSR using a bespoke 9M exhaust and ITBs in 2009 and Richard Chambberlain CTR Developments near Cambridge has ran the car at races for me since 2011. I can thoroughly recommend both of these. Great engineers and decades of experience.
My engine was built up using a standard 3.6 964 block and has only required the usual maintenance over the past ten years. I race six or seven races a year with CSCC including Spa Franchoramps.
That’s really impressive My engine was built up using a standard 3.6 964 block and has only required the usual maintenance over the past ten years. I race six or seven races a year with CSCC including Spa Franchoramps.
Redarress said:
Henry,
I am sure someone told me Nick was no longer building engines only doing vehicle storage and has reduced his staff who have gone to another shop in Brackley.
Can’t remember who told me so apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick .
That is correct, he has downsized a lot. He still does engine builds on a lower scale. But I suspect he has quite a long waiting list. I had one of his 3.8l motors on PMO EFI. It was stunning. I've known Nick for many years and can only second what's been said about him on here.I am sure someone told me Nick was no longer building engines only doing vehicle storage and has reduced his staff who have gone to another shop in Brackley.
Can’t remember who told me so apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick .
Bert
Redarress said:
Henry,
I am sure someone told me Nick was no longer building engines only doing vehicle storage and has reduced his staff who have gone to another shop in Brackley.
Can’t remember who told me so apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick .
Hi Sam, I hope you're well ? I am sure someone told me Nick was no longer building engines only doing vehicle storage and has reduced his staff who have gone to another shop in Brackley.
Can’t remember who told me so apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick .
I'm not surprised, the last time I spoke to Nick, he was incredibly busy, and as BertBert said, he had a large backlog of engine builds to undertake.
It's the same old "problem" when you're successful at something and your services become sought after. Stay as you are, or increase staff numbers (with all the attendant time constraints that imposes on your daily schedule) to cope with the increase in workload, and delegate engine building to other members of your team (with all the issues that can bring ....)
Slippydiff said:
Hi Sam, I hope you're well ?
I'm not surprised, the last time I spoke to Nick, he was incredibly busy, and as BertBert said, he had a large backlog of engine builds to undertake.
It's the same old "problem" when you're successful at something and your services become sought after. Stay as you are, or increase staff numbers (with all the attendant time constraints that imposes on your daily schedule) to cope with the increase in workload, and delegate engine building to other members of your team (with all the issues that can bring ....)
All goods thanks Henry . Hope you are too ?I'm not surprised, the last time I spoke to Nick, he was incredibly busy, and as BertBert said, he had a large backlog of engine builds to undertake.
It's the same old "problem" when you're successful at something and your services become sought after. Stay as you are, or increase staff numbers (with all the attendant time constraints that imposes on your daily schedule) to cope with the increase in workload, and delegate engine building to other members of your team (with all the issues that can bring ....)
I know this all too well ! I used to employ 50 but now there is just a couple of us , two seats of Solidworks CAD, two seats of a CAM package, A Vertical machining centre and CNC turning centre and varous metal forming machines .... The stress was killing me for little return.. Quality of life is now fantastic as we now do what we enjoy rather than chasing that next job ! Sounds like Nick can now concentrate on what he enjoys rather than the tediousness that comes with bigger setups ! Good Luck to him
There is a little write up on my 993 3.8 build here (with costs) if it is useful:
https://aircooledbug.co.uk/porsche-993-engine-rebu...
https://aircooledbug.co.uk/porsche-993-engine-rebu...
Aircooled_Bug said:
There is a little write up on my 993 3.8 build here (with costs) if it is useful:
https://aircooledbug.co.uk/porsche-993-engine-rebu...
An excellent write up, thankyou for posting https://aircooledbug.co.uk/porsche-993-engine-rebu...
Just a quick note to clarify the use of the word "slotted" in your description of the cam gear drives.
Aircooled_Bug said:
• Replacement of the original slotted cam chain drive wheels for more accurate ‘vernier style’ drive wheels allowing accurate cam timing, and more importantly the ability to match both banks very accurately
Vernier cam gears come in two differing types, a pin/dowel type, or a slot type. Both enable the inner portion of the cam gear to be rotated relative to the outer portion of the gear, this to enable the valve timing to be set very accurately.
1. This is a typical pin/dowel type vernier (the silver "dowel/pin" can be seen in the hole at the 12 O'clock position) :Vernier cam gears come in two differing types, a pin/dowel type, or a slot type. Both enable the inner portion of the cam gear to be rotated relative to the outer portion of the gear, this to enable the valve timing to be set very accurately.
2. This is the typical slot type vernier (the "slot" refers to the slots seen arrowed in yellow) :
The 964 engines used the pin/dowel vernier cam drive system.
The two parts of the drive gear are bolted onto the end of the camshaft, and to ensure consistent, reliable cam timing, both the cam and the inner section of the drive gear had a slot or crucially (and more accurately, a keyway) machined into them to enable a Woodruff key to be fitted to provide both a positive location and drive between the camshaft and the inner portion of the cam drive gear.
This (the woodruff key) :
Which is located into a keyway in the camshaft arrowed red here :
The inner section of the cam gear slides over the camshaft nose and and the woodruff key engages in the keyway arrowed in red here :
Thus assembled they look like this :
The vernier system (the outer cam gear has a series of holes drilled though it's face, which line up at differing degrees with cutouts in the inner section of the drive gear) thus enabling very accurate timing to be gained.
A dowel or pin is put into one of the holes in the outer part of the cam gear, and its inner end locates in a series of cutouts the same size as the pin in the inner section of the cam gear. By rotating the outer relative to the inner and moving the pin, accurate adjustment of the cam timing relative to the crankshaft is possible, this whilst retaining a positive drive between the inner and outer parts of the drive gear.
Fully assembled witha large bolt and washer to hold the whole together, the arrangement looks like this (the dowel/pin that enables the infinite adjustment between the two parts of the drive gear can be seen at the 2' O clock position) :
However, when the factory designed the 993 engine, they'd already instructed a group of Japanese automotive consultants to give them ideas as to how to reduce production costs.
In their infinite wisdom, the factory took on board what they were told by the consultants, and elected to simplify the cam gear design (massively).
In place of the brilliant, two part pin/dowel infinitely adjustable vernier cam drives, came these :
The cam and cam drive have no keyways or woodfuff keys to ensure a positive, consistent drive between the two of them, instead a specially "dished" large washer was used underneath the large bolt that hold the two parts together. The dished washer was intended to provide friction beneath the two surfaces (the inner face of the washer and the outer face of the cam gear, and this friction was supposed to lock them together !! Adjustment between the two components was gained by rotating the cam gear relative to the camshaft itself, then locking the two parts (by use of separate locking tool/s) then tightening the large bolt to a specified torque. Absolute genius ... Not.
As the two components were not mechanically and positively locked together, the timing could, and did slip, leading to a lack of power.
Yellow 491 on here will confirm that a lot of 993 RS suffered with slipped cam timing/lack of power, and were fixed under warranty, once Porsche understood the issue.
Hence the frequent retro fitment of the 964 keyway (not slotted) type vernier timing gears to 993 engines to avoid future problems with the timing slipping.
In your case, the fitment of the rally spec cams to your engine would, I suspect, have necessitated the fitment of the older keyed type cam drive gears by Phil and his team.
Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 3rd November 12:40
I would say work out what you want out of the engine and the desired bhp/tourque,then you can budget a build.
You can easily spend 10k extra chasing a extra 20 bhp etc especially when you ate down the slippery road of itb etc
If you intend to get a spirited engine,think about new conrods,rather than the chocolate 993 rods.
There are a few good engine builders about,such as ctr who i use,rpm engine man,tech9,9m,Russell Lewis
You can easily spend 10k extra chasing a extra 20 bhp etc especially when you ate down the slippery road of itb etc
If you intend to get a spirited engine,think about new conrods,rather than the chocolate 993 rods.
There are a few good engine builders about,such as ctr who i use,rpm engine man,tech9,9m,Russell Lewis
!Aircooled_Bug said:
There is a little write up on my 993 3.8 build here (with costs) if it is useful:
https://aircooledbug.co.uk/porsche-993-engine-rebu...
Thank you, that’s most interesting food for thought. https://aircooledbug.co.uk/porsche-993-engine-rebu...
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