Scratching a Ferrari itch
Discussion
Osinjak said:
That’s my question really, will they all fail at some point?
Yes. It’s an inherent design flaw due to the fact that the manifolds are rigidly coupled to the chassis via the back box but the engine is on pliant mounts. As a result, the exhaust system flexes every time the engine moves in its mounts. The problem would not be so serious if it wasn’t for the fact that there is a pre-cat in the manifold and it is mounted above the engine. If the manifold cracks and the crack is left undetected (you can’t inspect for this visually) then the pre-cat starts to disintegrate. As it disintegrates, it falls down towards the exhaust ports and gets sucked back into the engine. Bye-bye engine: Hello engine rebuild.
There are those who will tell you to run the manifolds on condition and have them inspected religiously (smoke test or audible clues). I was advised by my Indy not to take the risk - he confirmed that they all eventually fail. It’s notable that Ferrari rectified the design flaw with the Scud as they deleted the pre-cats in its manifold. Replacing the back box mounting system with pliant mounts reduces the time to failure of the OEM manifolds but it doesn’t eliminate the risk of pre-cat ingestion when they do eventually fail.
Just watch this video and ask yourself why you wouldn’t swap the OEM exhaust out for a Kline system.
The key point about all the aftermarket manifolds is that they do not have a pre-cat.
Capristo manifolds are 4-2-1. AFAIK, all the other aftermarket manifolds are 4-1. Capristo also offer heat blankets to reduce engine bay temperatures. When I was looking to buy a F430, I budgeted £8k for the installation of Capristo manifolds, heat blankets and a Kline back box.
If never a huge fan of ferrari (and not going v12) then have you thought of the Maserati? Same incredible sound (as thats what you seem drawn to) but better image, not as quick but in 4.7 460hp guise its no slouch either, you’d get one of the last face lifted Grancabrio or Granturismo for 60k, you would probably loose 20k over 3 yrs though.
I realise that owning a Ferrari is neither a risk-free or cheap endeavour but squirrelling away 8k before you've even started is galling. Throw storage, fuel, insurance and all the rest of it on top and it starts to lose its appeal. Some will of course argue if you can't afford it and so on but that's not really the point, I don't mind spending money I just don't want to start shelling out before I've even started!
Anyway, grumble over. There's a few aftermarket manufacturers around but many seem to complain about the increased noise with one or two even going back to stock (after they've been repaired). I certainly do no want more noise, any recommendations?
The Maserati is a smart looking thing but losing 20k on a car is just not something I can swallow anymore, been there and done that. Thanks for the tip though.
Anyway, grumble over. There's a few aftermarket manufacturers around but many seem to complain about the increased noise with one or two even going back to stock (after they've been repaired). I certainly do no want more noise, any recommendations?
The Maserati is a smart looking thing but losing 20k on a car is just not something I can swallow anymore, been there and done that. Thanks for the tip though.
Edited by Osinjak on Sunday 27th December 10:27
Osinjak said:
I realise that owning a Ferrari is neither a risk-free or cheap endeavour but squirrelling away 8k before you've even started is galling. Throw storage, fuel, insurance and all the rest of it on top and it starts to lose its appeal. Some will of course argue if you can't afford it and so on but that's not really the point I don't mind spending money I just don't want to start shelling out before I've vent started!
Anyway, grumble over. There's a few aftermarket manufacturers around but many seem to complain about the increased noise with one or two even going back to stock (after they've been repaired). I certainly do no want more noise, any recommendations?
The Maserati is a smart looking thing but losing 20k on a car is just not something I can swallow anymore, been there and done that. Thanks for the tip though.
I bought mine from an independent dealer with a good rep. He is picking up the circa £10k of things and offering a 12 month warranty. My car is currently with them to have a few things sorted that raised their heads after a few trips. Anyway, grumble over. There's a few aftermarket manufacturers around but many seem to complain about the increased noise with one or two even going back to stock (after they've been repaired). I certainly do no want more noise, any recommendations?
The Maserati is a smart looking thing but losing 20k on a car is just not something I can swallow anymore, been there and done that. Thanks for the tip though.
I am not expecting major issues after the 12 months as I will have given the car a good shakedown whilst under warranty.
Osinjak said:
I realise that owning a Ferrari is neither a risk-free or cheap endeavour but squirrelling away 8k before you've even started is galling.
£8k was for the whole shooting match. Just replacing the manifolds will cost you half that amount. And anyway, it’s something you should use during your negotiations when buying - so it all becomes part of the purchase cost rather than ‘squirrelling’ it away for a later expense. I would pay more for a car with aftermarket manifolds than one with OE manifolds. If you’re concerned about the noise then don’t replace the back box but you’ll still be inviting a cracked manifold. However, the consequences of it cracking will be less potentially catastrophic than if you still have the OE manifold installed.
ANOpax said:
£8k was for the whole shooting match. Just replacing the manifolds will cost you half that amount. And anyway, it’s something you should use during your negotiations when buying - so it all becomes part of the purchase cost rather than ‘squirrelling’ it away for a later expense.
I would pay more for a car with aftermarket manifolds than one with OE manifolds. If you’re concerned about the noise then don’t replace the back box but you’ll still be inviting a cracked manifold. However, the consequences of it cracking will be less potentially catastrophic than if you still have the OE manifold installed.
Thanks, not sure I'm following you though. Are you saying that if you only replace the manifolds they may still crack? I thought by reading around that was all people did, replaced just the manifolds and nothing else.I would pay more for a car with aftermarket manifolds than one with OE manifolds. If you’re concerned about the noise then don’t replace the back box but you’ll still be inviting a cracked manifold. However, the consequences of it cracking will be less potentially catastrophic than if you still have the OE manifold installed.
Osinjak said:
I realise that owning a Ferrari is neither a risk-free or cheap endeavour but squirrelling away 8k before you've even started is galling. Throw storage, fuel, insurance and all the rest of it on top and it starts to lose its appeal. Some will of course argue if you can't afford it and so on but that's not really the point, I don't mind spending money I just don't want to start shelling out before I've even started!
Anyway, grumble over. There's a few aftermarket manufacturers around but many seem to complain about the increased noise with one or two even going back to stock (after they've been repaired). I certainly do no want more noise, any recommendations?
The Maserati is a smart looking thing but losing 20k on a car is just not something I can swallow anymore, been there and done that. Thanks for the tip though.
Totaly with you, i bought an imaculate lhd to avoid depreciation and it worked a treat in terms of money but its condition and low mileage resulted in me being so precious about it that i vowed never to have a garage queen again (which i fear a ferrari would be) Anyway, grumble over. There's a few aftermarket manufacturers around but many seem to complain about the increased noise with one or two even going back to stock (after they've been repaired). I certainly do no want more noise, any recommendations?
The Maserati is a smart looking thing but losing 20k on a car is just not something I can swallow anymore, been there and done that. Thanks for the tip though.
Edited by Osinjak on Sunday 27th December 10:27
If i were to buy a Lambo or ferrari again then i’d make sure it was of average to high mileage in average condition that i could use whenever i wanted, leave outside if i didnt fancy putting it in the garage etc, not wash it every few days etc basically buy in a way that i wouldnt worry about it too much as that destroys the ownership for me.
I moved to an AMG GTC Roadster and i hardly ever wash it, stays outside allot and i track it hard, the ownership experience has been so much better in terms of how much i get out of it for the money i paid, cost twice what the Maserati did but i’m getting four times the experience tbh.
LHD is a good way of negating depreciation though, something worth considering at this end of the market, certain marques in certain countries are lower, germany for one doesnt seem to like used italian cars when i was comparing prices but they are very conciencous about their cars in terms of condition and servicing which means good ‘cheaper’ fezzas, lambos, maseratis etc.
Osinjak said:
Thanks, not sure I'm following you though. Are you saying that if you only replace the manifolds they may still crack? I thought by reading around that was all people did, replaced just the manifolds and nothing else.
Hi, that is not the whole story. Indeed, replacing the manifolds with aftermarket items seems like a good idea if one is not worried about keeping originality. But if one has a complete Ferrari service history, that might spoil it.But there are other solutions. My local dealer tells me they have never had an engine failure due to manifold/catalyst failure and that regular inspection would catch any start of a problem. The other solution offered by Ferrari is this: Replacement silencers with distinctive new look black tailpipes made with a new light weight ceramic coating were developed for the LaFerrari. The new system is also designed to protect the exhaust manifold even further by reducing the stress on the manifold through the use of two silencers instead of the standard one. I also gather that later F430 manifolds were less prone to failure. Whatever, low mileage vehicles that have not be subjected to heavy spirited driving and hence overheating are less likely to suffer.
dereksharpuk said:
Osinjak said:
Thanks, not sure I'm following you though. Are you saying that if you only replace the manifolds they may still crack? I thought by reading around that was all people did, replaced just the manifolds and nothing else.
Hi, that is not the whole story. Indeed, replacing the manifolds with aftermarket items seems like a good idea if one is not worried about keeping originality. But if one has a complete Ferrari service history, that might spoil it.Regarding the issue with the manifold and the cracks, there are two interlinked design problems.
The first is that the entire exhaust system is rigidly mounted at the back box to the chassis and that places stress on the exhaust components when the engine moves/vibrates in its mounts. This is what causes manifolds to fail. By itself, this would not be a major problem but In their wisdom, Ferrari chose to locate a pre-cat in the manifold.
This is the source of the second design problem. When the pre-cat disintegrates, it drops down to the exhaust ports and gets ingested into the engine. If the manifolds weren’t prone to cracking then the pre-cat wouldn’t disintegrate. As Dereksharpuk mentioned, you can test the manifolds for cracks but it has to be done using smoke as the manifold pipes are buried in a casing and the only way to inspect them visually is to destroy the casing.
So what are the solutions?
One is to fit a more flexible back box mount and it sounds like the new split box version mentioned by Dereksharpuk might do the trick. However, you’re still left with the OE manifolds and while the probability of pre-cat failure had fallen significantly, it is still a risk that you’re taking.
The other is to fit aftermarket manifolds. This won’t eliminate the cracking problem unless you address the back box but without a pre-cat, there is no risk of engine damage. Aftermarket manifolds also have the advantage of being easy to inspect visually as the pipes aren’t shelled with an outer casing.
The full monty solution is to replace manifolds and back box together.
I don’t buy the ‘you’ll damage the value by fitting non Ferrari parts’ argument. After all, nobody marks down a car because it has Hill Engineering ball joints do they? My F355 had an awesome Tubi fitted to it and it wasn’t an issue when I bought it and it was seen as a positive when I sold it. I would say that Hill Engineering ball joints and bushes along with an aftermarket exhaust fall into the value added upgrade category for a F430.
No car is without its fair share of gremlins for sure (I own an RRS) but shelling out thousands to fix a design flaw is a bit rich, literally and metaphorically. However I'm struggling with the idea that all 15000 430s have, or will have, his problem. Can't be right, surely? I don't know the 430 exhaust system well enough in order to make an informed decision, is it going to cost 1k or 8k to sort (setting aside the engine being destroyed which will clearly involve many pennies)? I anticipate picking up any problems before the cat does its worst but I just need to weigh up the preventative piece, there seem to be mixed stories with the Ferrari warranty where some have had the manifolds covered under goodwill and others categorically not. I really don't want to be out for a hoon with a nagging doubt in my mind, where's the fun in that?
I'd have thought most cars should have had the manifold issue sorted by now (or at least had them replaced even if it may happen again). And for those that haven't had it done it might suggest scrimping on maintenance. Personally, I'd like to see a receipt for the work in a car's history file before buying.
Osinjak said:
No car is without its fair share of gremlins for sure (I own an RRS) but shelling out thousands to fix a design flaw is a bit rich, literally and metaphorically.
Then stay away from;Porsche (cylinder scoring, IMS and cam belt idler pulley)
Lamborghini (cat ingestion)
Audi (magnaride)
Ferrari (F355 valve guides, 360 variators, F430 manifolds, FF PTU, Cali & 458 DCT)
Maserati (variators)
Aston (clutches, head and tail lamps)
McLaren (just about anything)
The list goes on...
Osinjak said:
No car is without its fair share of gremlins for sure (I own an RRS) but shelling out thousands to fix a design flaw is a bit rich, literally and metaphorically. However I'm struggling with the idea that all 15000 430s have, or will have, his problem. Can't be right, surely? I don't know the 430 exhaust system well enough in order to make an informed decision, is it going to cost 1k or 8k to sort (setting aside the engine being destroyed which will clearly involve many pennies)? I anticipate picking up any problems before the cat does its worst but I just need to weigh up the preventative piece, there seem to be mixed stories with the Ferrari warranty where some have had the manifolds covered under goodwill and others categorically not. I really don't want to be out for a hoon with a nagging doubt in my mind, where's the fun in that?
My warranty did not cover the manifolds or the exhaust backbox that needed to be replaced twice in less than 18 months - painful 2 trips to the dealer. My 355 also needed 2 new manifolds in the first year after purchase - these things seem to be like soft cheese .... Gassing Station | Ferrari V8 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff