Convertible 360 manual or convertible F430 F1?
Discussion
AmoCS said:
plus point on 430 is its chain driven, so no 3yr cambelt belt changes.
£700 extra for the 360 once every 3 years shouldn't be a game changer, its probably about the same as getting a dealer to fix the wobbly rear lights on a 430. Plus things like brake discs on the 430 are at least 2 x the price of the 360.The question, however, was about gremlins. I am genuinely interested to know in those terms where the 430 is better, as its part of a decision making process along the lines of:
a: keep my 360
b: move to a 430 (enough difference? maybe not)
c: buy a McLaren
d: sell something useful like an investment and buy a 458
Head says a
Heart says d
blend of head and heart.........?
or maybe a 599
well maybe I'm wrong
from frequenting a 'chat' forum on 360s/430s it was my perception that more issues with the 360 came up than they did the 430 but it was purely subjective on my part - I also found that the 360s I looked at had had harder lives so maybe that gave me an unfair view of their reliability - one car had the heat exchanger fail that seems a regular enough issue on 360s, I saw another with ECU issues - something I think the 430 suffers less with as they moved them to a cooler spot -- obviously you also have the timing chain vs belt advantage too
anyway, I'm not knocking the 360 at all, it's fantastic and, in the scheme of things, I'd imagine the upkeep will be v similar between the two
imo the biggest single difference between the cars is that the 430, especially in normal world use, feels much faster
from frequenting a 'chat' forum on 360s/430s it was my perception that more issues with the 360 came up than they did the 430 but it was purely subjective on my part - I also found that the 360s I looked at had had harder lives so maybe that gave me an unfair view of their reliability - one car had the heat exchanger fail that seems a regular enough issue on 360s, I saw another with ECU issues - something I think the 430 suffers less with as they moved them to a cooler spot -- obviously you also have the timing chain vs belt advantage too
anyway, I'm not knocking the 360 at all, it's fantastic and, in the scheme of things, I'd imagine the upkeep will be v similar between the two
imo the biggest single difference between the cars is that the 430, especially in normal world use, feels much faster
Mark_Blanchard said:
Really? What issue's did you have? If you are referring to the engine, from what I've heard the 360 engine is a reliable unit. There was the cam variator issue on early cars, but most cars have been sorted long ago.
My 360 has been good as gold.
Although I agree that 360s don't seem to have 'gremlins' - I would dispute the fact that cars have had the cam variator issue sorted. I agree they've probably all had the Ferrari mod, but I can assure you that doesn't fix the problem.My 360 has been good as gold.
Plainview23 said:
well maybe I'm wrong
from frequenting a 'chat' forum on 360s/430s it was my perception that more issues with the 360 came up than they did the 430 but it was purely subjective on my part - I also found that the 360s I looked at had had harder lives so maybe that gave me an unfair view of their reliability - one car had the heat exchanger fail that seems a regular enough issue on 360s, I saw another with ECU issues - something I think the 430 suffers less with as they moved them to a cooler spot -- obviously you also have the timing chain vs belt advantage too
anyway, I'm not knocking the 360 at all, it's fantastic and, in the scheme of things, I'd imagine the upkeep will be v similar between the two
imo the biggest single difference between the cars is that the 430, especially in normal world use, feels much faster
Cat ECU’s can certainly suffer from heat, but they are cheap to fix. As I understand it engine ECU’s are no less reliable than average but hard to source replacements. from frequenting a 'chat' forum on 360s/430s it was my perception that more issues with the 360 came up than they did the 430 but it was purely subjective on my part - I also found that the 360s I looked at had had harder lives so maybe that gave me an unfair view of their reliability - one car had the heat exchanger fail that seems a regular enough issue on 360s, I saw another with ECU issues - something I think the 430 suffers less with as they moved them to a cooler spot -- obviously you also have the timing chain vs belt advantage too
anyway, I'm not knocking the 360 at all, it's fantastic and, in the scheme of things, I'd imagine the upkeep will be v similar between the two
imo the biggest single difference between the cars is that the 430, especially in normal world use, feels much faster
mwstewart said:
No shortage of issues with my 430. It needs constant attention to keep in A1 mechanical condition. My previous 430 was the same. Build quality is not great.
Interesting one. My 360 always needs something doing to be as good as I want it, but thats not really a reliability thing, its a factor of being 21 years old. Build quality I would say is better than my 2014 top spec Lotus Evora was, but obviously age affects some parts. The 430's I have looked at (only driven 3 so far) were not dissimilar, things do wear out or age.My 360 has had 1 big job done in my ownership that I wouldn't put down to age, and that was noisy synchro between 3rd and 4th, obviously quite a big fix, but was done under warranty by the dealer I purchased from. Other things have been clutch (just failed) but thats a wear item, likewise bushes and engine mounts, aircon compressor, but otherwise it gets a clean bill of health from AV on big issues.
But there is always something to do, jobs this winter will include: repaint of interior door handles, replace the screws that hold down the carpet, replace headlight bulbs and replace rear brake pads. Last winter it was repaint the CS rear grille, ball joints and bushes, before that it was replace headliner (the foam backing fails), next winter I want to get the seats re-connolised. Many of these jobs are elective and obviously many wouldn't need doing on a car thats not >20 years old.
blueg33 said:
£700 extra for the 360 once every 3 years shouldn't be a game changer, its probably about the same as getting a dealer to fix the wobbly rear lights on a 430. Plus things like brake discs on the 430 are at least 2 x the price of the 360.
The question, however, was about gremlins. I am genuinely interested to know in those terms where the 430 is better, as its part of a decision making process along the lines of:
a: keep my 360
b: move to a 430 (enough difference? maybe not)
c: buy a McLaren
d: sell something useful like an investment and buy a 458
Head says a
Heart says d
blend of head and heart.........?
or maybe a 599
458 is a big difference and a great driving experience, mclaren is also nice to drive and worth test driving but perhaps not as much of an investment.The question, however, was about gremlins. I am genuinely interested to know in those terms where the 430 is better, as its part of a decision making process along the lines of:
a: keep my 360
b: move to a 430 (enough difference? maybe not)
c: buy a McLaren
d: sell something useful like an investment and buy a 458
Head says a
Heart says d
blend of head and heart.........?
or maybe a 599
599 is fun but could cause big bills
blueg33 said:
Interesting one...
Mine left me stranded in the middle of the road in an Italian hilltop village on our recent trip. One of the F1 solenoids had burnt out. Thankfully I could resolve it myself - in front of a large crowd of tourists - to get back to accomodation to fix permanently. Steering nut came loose. Breather hose split, and another list as long as my arm from the one trip of just 3k miles. Other trips had similar incidents involving the roof not opening due to a broken microswitch, the AC packing up due to a fatigued pin on an electrical connector, failed wheel bearing knocking out the driving systems. There is always something.This is two 430s over 23k miles.
Quality is poor and hence extremely variable. I've now lost interest in mine so it's relegated to runs out in the UK. More reliable stuff does the big trips.
mwstewart said:
Mine left me stranded in the middle of the road in an Italian hilltop village on our recent trip. One of the F1 solenoids had burnt out. Thankfully I could resolve it myself - in front of a large crowd of tourists - to get back to accomodation to fix permanently. Steering nut came loose. Breather hose split, and another list as long as my arm from the one trip of just 3k miles. Other trips had similar incidents involving the roof not opening due to a broken microswitch, the AC packing up due to a fatigued pin on an electrical connector, failed wheel bearing knocking out the driving systems. There is always something.
This is two 430s over 23k miles.
Quality is poor and hence extremely variable. I've now lost interest in mine so it's relegated to runs out in the UK. More reliable stuff does the big trips.
Which solenoid was it, gear or clutch? How did you resolve it on the road, did you swap them about? This is two 430s over 23k miles.
Quality is poor and hence extremely variable. I've now lost interest in mine so it's relegated to runs out in the UK. More reliable stuff does the big trips.
m4tti said:
Which solenoid was it, gear or clutch? How did you resolve it on the road, did you swap them about?
Clutch/EVF. Clutch circuit was leaking internally to the degree that the F1 pump was on constantly. This triggered the trans error state due to clutchcontrol, and stopped the car dead.
Ran a DEIS at side of road to return some degree of clutch control with the heavily leaking solenoid - essentially teaching the TCU the characteristics of the solenoid in its failed state.
Cleared codes which allowed me to start the car and drive back to villa with a slipping clutch.
Replaced EVF once back, new fluid, and bled clutch circuit.
mwstewart said:
Clutch/EVF. Clutch circuit was leaking internally to the degree that the F1 pump was on constantly. This triggered the trans error state due to clutch
control, and stopped the car dead.
Ran a DEIS at side of road to return some degree of clutch control with the heavily leaking solenoid - essentially teaching the TCU the characteristics of the solenoid in its failed state.
Cleared codes which allowed me to start the car and drive back to villa with a slipping clutch.
Replaced EVF once back, new fluid, and bled clutch circuit.
Were you carrying a spare evf? I carry diagnostic gear with me. Have previously lost the throttle peddle, and had to get rid of a potentiometer fault to get going again. control, and stopped the car dead.
Ran a DEIS at side of road to return some degree of clutch control with the heavily leaking solenoid - essentially teaching the TCU the characteristics of the solenoid in its failed state.
Cleared codes which allowed me to start the car and drive back to villa with a slipping clutch.
Replaced EVF once back, new fluid, and bled clutch circuit.
I’ve said it before, and get shot down sometimes, these are an ok design, just somewhat fragile. It isn’t a Porsche.
m4tti said:
Were you carrying a spare evf? I carry diagnostic gear with me. Have previously lost the throttle peddle, and had to get rid of a potentiometer fault to get going again.
I’ve said it before, and get shot down sometimes, these are an ok design, just somewhat fragile. It isn’t a Porsche.
I wasn't. It isn't something I'd think to take. I take a couple of F1 relays, tools, and always diagnostics. I spent a morning on the phone and writing emails and thankfully found one on the shelf. August shutdown was looming so it's likely that I'd have been out of luck otherwise.I’ve said it before, and get shot down sometimes, these are an ok design, just somewhat fragile. It isn’t a Porsche.
They certainly are fragile.
m4tti said:
just somewhat fragile. It isn’t a Porsche.
No - it doesn't have bore scoring, IMS problems, RMS leaks - or a bit further back exploding DMFs etc. I always find it odd that Porsche are often cited as a paragon of reliability when they seem to have as many design cock ups as any other manufacturer.davek_964 said:
No - it doesn't have bore scoring, IMS problems, RMS leaks - or a bit further back exploding DMFs etc. I always find it odd that Porsche are often cited as a paragon of reliability when they seem to have as many design cock ups as any other manufacturer.
I think if you put failures over numbers built, it’d probably come out at a reasonably low percentage. But still I’ll revise that statement and say “it’s definitely not an R8”
davek_964 said:
m4tti said:
just somewhat fragile. It isn’t a Porsche.
No - it doesn't have bore scoring, IMS problems, RMS leaks - or a bit further back exploding DMFs etc. I always find it odd that Porsche are often cited as a paragon of reliability when they seem to have as many design cock ups as any other manufacturer.Having asked questions re a 458 spider recently, i’ve reversed my interest on the basis of scuttle shake, i dont particularly like the 430 shape but i do the 360, my interest over the last 6 months has included a 360 cs but cant find one..
What was the scuttle shake like on the 360? i had a 4200 spyder for 6 years and it wasnt the best in this department but i lived with it..
What was the scuttle shake like on the 360? i had a 4200 spyder for 6 years and it wasnt the best in this department but i lived with it..
All this talk of scuttle shake, honestly. When I’m out for a hoon, there is so much going on that even if there was significant shake I doubt I’d even notice it. Or care.
The driving experience transcends any foibles and I think if you were able to observe any perceived shake at 8500 howling revs in whatever gear, you’re a much much better driver than me. That or you’re focusing on the wrong bits.
My wife’s convertible mini on the other hand…
The driving experience transcends any foibles and I think if you were able to observe any perceived shake at 8500 howling revs in whatever gear, you’re a much much better driver than me. That or you’re focusing on the wrong bits.
My wife’s convertible mini on the other hand…
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