458 values now that the 488GTB is here - only way is down!?

[ferdi p]

Gotta say I'm not sure that I would use numbers sold to prove one car is better than another...
The Ferrari will comfortably sell more because... well... it's a FERRARI!!

I was definitely going to buy a 458 but ended up with a 12c Spider, why? For me it's the better car & I'm genuinely fed up with the Ferrari image... & I'm an Italian !!!

[Mermaid]

ferdi p said:

Gotta say I'm not sure that I would use numbers sold to prove one car is better than another...
The Ferrari will comfortably sell more because... well... it's a FERRARI!!

I was definitely going to buy a 458 but ended up with a 12c Spider, why? For me it's the better car & I'm genuinely fed up with the Ferrari image... & I'm an Italian !!!

There we have it, red blooded Italian Stallions prefer the McLaren

[Slickhillsy]

ferdi p said:

Gotta say I'm not sure that I would use numbers sold to prove one car is better than another...
The Ferrari will comfortably sell more because... well... it's a FERRARI!!

I was definitely going to buy a 458 but ended up with a 12c Spider, why? For me it's the better car & I'm genuinely fed up with the Ferrari image... & I'm an Italian !!!

Bet you don't like Pizza either but love Fish & Chips!

[GRBF430F1]

ferdi p said:

Gotta say I'm not sure that I would use numbers sold to prove one car is better than another...
The Ferrari will comfortably sell more because... well... it's a FERRARI!!

I was definitely going to buy a 458 but ended up with a 12c Spider, why? For me it's the better car & I'm genuinely fed up with the Ferrari image... & I'm an Italian !!!

Well said that man !

Was exactly the same for me - the McLaren was the better "product" for me IMHO. Don't buy into a lot of the brand 8ull5h1t that gets spouted around.

Ferrari is a great brand with the best car pedigree you could have but what McLaren has achieved is simply phenomenal and yet we still get the Brit bashers.

No wonder this country is going down the drain

[AndrewD]

GRBF430F1 said:

AndrewD said:

Mate, seriously, get a grip on realtiy. Ferrari "catch up with McL"? I'm no Ferrari fan per se, in fact their shenanigans over who gets what model of new car almost completely turned me off them, but really, what you said there...really? I am not sure by what multiple the 458 has outsold the 12c/650 combined, but I'll wager it is quite a high number. The numbers don't lie, everything else is subjective

The Ford Fiesta has outsold the 458 so by your logic does that make it a better car ??????
The objective facts are there for all to see - 458 was not even close to MP4 12C performance figures and now the new 488 is on a par with McLaren 650S, so yes Ferrari have caught up objectively with their all new model to be launched. Everything else is subjective
Seriously, get a grip man

Right, ok. Ford Fiesta, wtf has that got to do with anything?
The 458 and McL compete for the same buyers, the 458 has absolutely st on the McL in terms of sales. Many people who could have bought a McL didn't. I suppose they could have bought a Fiesta instead. Jeez. Talk about blinkers

[AndrewD]

ferdi p said:

Gotta say I'm not sure that I would use numbers sold to prove one car is better than another...
The Ferrari will comfortably sell more because... well... it's a FERRARI!!

I was definitely going to buy a 458 but ended up with a 12c Spider, why? For me it's the better car & I'm genuinely fed up with the Ferrari image... & I'm an Italian !!!

I'm not debating "better". Better is subjective. He said Ferrari have finally caught up. They didn't need to try, they are so far ahead it is unreal. I'd love for McL to be a genuine alternative but it is not. Don't take my opinion for it, the market has spoken. Ferrari's bullst deserves to be royally stuffed down its throat. Unfortunately, the 12c/650s isn't doing that. Hopefully the next car will

[andrew]

AndrewD said:

GRBF430F1 said:

AndrewD said:

Mate, seriously, get a grip on realtiy. Ferrari "catch up with McL"? I'm no Ferrari fan per se, in fact their shenanigans over who gets what model of new car almost completely turned me off them, but really, what you said there...really? I am not sure by what multiple the 458 has outsold the 12c/650 combined, but I'll wager it is quite a high number. The numbers don't lie, everything else is subjective

The Ford Fiesta has outsold the 458 so by your logic does that make it a better car ??????
The objective facts are there for all to see - 458 was not even close to MP4 12C performance figures and now the new 488 is on a par with McLaren 650S, so yes Ferrari have caught up objectively with their all new model to be launched. Everything else is subjective
Seriously, get a grip man

Right, ok. Ford Fiesta, wtf has that got to do with anything?
The 458 and McL compete for the same buyers, the 458 has absolutely st on the McL in terms of sales. Many people who could have bought a McL didn't. I suppose they could have bought a Fiesta instead. Jeez. Talk about blinkers

less of the fiesta bashing if you don't mind !

[Camlet]

EVO 198.

458 Speciale vs 650S (and GT3).

Referring to the Speciale..........

"It. Is. UNBELIEVABLE. Where the 650S has a little 'squish' in every control, the Speciale is so instantaneous it seems to react even before you've issued a command. The response from the engine, brakes, steering and the grip and the balance is nothing short of astonishing. Cliched or not, the Speciale is a vivid, capivating all-consuming assault of the senses.......and that amazing focus has produced a breathtaking machine".

Love them or loathe them, Ferrari produce cars which more than walk the tallk. And some.

[AndrewD]

Camlet said:

EVO 198.

458 Speciale vs 650S (and GT3).

Referring to the Speciale..........

"It. Is. UNBELIEVABLE. Where the 650S has a little 'squish' in every control, the Speciale is so instantaneous it seems to react even before you've issued a command. The response from the engine, brakes, steering and the grip and the balance is nothing short of astonishing. Cliched or not, the Speciale is a vivid, capivating all-consuming assault of the senses.......and that amazing focus has produced a breathtaking machine".

Love them or loathe them, Ferrari produce cars which more than walk the tallk. And some.

Evo do get somewhat gushy though. I thought the Speciale had more pronounced roll and understeer on the road compared with a GT3 which just felt sharper and nimbler and with better brakes. And the spaz is huge, wider than my CGT, and it needs a much louder exhaust, I was expecting something approaching the 599 GTO but it was pretty quiet and a bit disappointing. The Ferrari does like being driven in a more hooligan manner though

[AndrewD]

Camlet said:

EVO 198.

458 Speciale vs 650S (and GT3).

Referring to the Speciale..........

"It. Is. UNBELIEVABLE. Where the 650S has a little 'squish' in every control, the Speciale is so instantaneous it seems to react even before you've issued a command. The response from the engine, brakes, steering and the grip and the balance is nothing short of astonishing. Cliched or not, the Speciale is a vivid, capivating all-consuming assault of the senses.......and that amazing focus has produced a breathtaking machine".

Love them or loathe them, Ferrari produce cars which more than walk the tallk. And some.

Evo do get somewhat gushy though. I thought the Speciale had more pronounced roll and understeer on the road compared with a GT3 which just felt sharper and nimbler and with better brakes. And the spaz is huge, wider than my CGT, and it needs a much louder exhaust, I was expecting something approaching the 599 GTO but it was pretty quiet and a bit disappointing. The Ferrari does like being driven in a more hooligan manner though

[GRBF430F1]

Camlet said:

EVO 198.

458 Speciale vs 650S (and GT3).

Referring to the Speciale..........

"It. Is. UNBELIEVABLE. Where the 650S has a little 'squish' in every control, the Speciale is so instantaneous it seems to react even before you've issued a command. The response from the engine, brakes, steering and the grip and the balance is nothing short of astonishing. Cliched or not, the Speciale is a vivid, capivating all-consuming assault of the senses.......and that amazing focus has produced a breathtaking machine".

Love them or loathe them, Ferrari produce cars which more than walk the tallk. And some.

Would that be the lightweight track focussed speciale edition or regular vanilla GTB flavour that barely beat the McLaren on the track ????????

Theres a point to point today so I just hope Shergar doesn't turn up to race the local farmers donkey

[Camlet]

GRBF430F1 said:

Camlet said:

EVO 198.

458 Speciale vs 650S (and GT3).

Referring to the Speciale..........

"It. Is. UNBELIEVABLE. Where the 650S has a little 'squish' in every control, the Speciale is so instantaneous it seems to react even before you've issued a command. The response from the engine, brakes, steering and the grip and the balance is nothing short of astonishing. Cliched or not, the Speciale is a vivid, capivating all-consuming assault of the senses.......and that amazing focus has produced a breathtaking machine".

Love them or loathe them, Ferrari produce cars which more than walk the tallk. And some.

Would that be the lightweight track focussed speciale edition or regular vanilla GTB flavour that barely beat the McLaren on the track ????????

Theres a point to point today so I just hope Shergar doesn't turn up to race the local farmers donkey

Harsh. I wouldn't call a 650S a local farmers donkey

[Camlet]

AndrewD said:

Camlet said:

EVO 198.

458 Speciale vs 650S (and GT3).

Referring to the Speciale..........

"It. Is. UNBELIEVABLE. Where the 650S has a little 'squish' in every control, the Speciale is so instantaneous it seems to react even before you've issued a command. The response from the engine, brakes, steering and the grip and the balance is nothing short of astonishing. Cliched or not, the Speciale is a vivid, capivating all-consuming assault of the senses.......and that amazing focus has produced a breathtaking machine".

Love them or loathe them, Ferrari produce cars which more than walk the tallk. And some.

Evo do get somewhat gushy though. I thought the Speciale had more pronounced roll and understeer on the road compared with a GT3 which just felt sharper and nimbler and with better brakes. And the spaz is huge, wider than my CGT, and it needs a much louder exhaust, I was expecting something approaching the 599 GTO but it was pretty quiet and a bit disappointing. The Ferrari does like being driven in a more hooligan manner though

Agree, the 458 is a big car, up against the F40 it looks like a bloody limo. Per the 599 GTO, it is really quite special, especially its noise, as we both know

[tuscaneer]

GRBF430F1 said:

Well said that man !

Was exactly the same for me - the McLaren was the better "product" for me IMHO. Don't buy into a lot of the brand 8ull5h1t that gets spouted around.

Ferrari is a great brand with the best car pedigree you could have but what McLaren has achieved is simply phenomenal and yet we still get the Brit bashers.

No wonder this country is going down the drain

I don't think anyone is "brit bashing" that's a ridiculous statement.
speaking as someone who has owned 4 tvr's and 2 astons I feel I've done my bit for the British motor industry and then some....

As my journey progressed I wanted something fiery fast and nimble and had the choice between ferrari and lamborghini. I opted for a 430 coupe (twice!) As for me it was by far a better drive than the gallardo. The whole package for me Was a consideration when buying and the heritage and comfort of knowing exactly what ferrari stood for influenced my decision. If I'm totally honest I took a bit of Comfort in the residual robustness of the brand as well.

I went to Knutsford to look at an mp12 4c .....didn't really leave me breathless like the 430 did when I first sat in one. I ultimately didn't even test drive it as I didn't want to waste their time. I wasn't enamoured and was worried about all the horror stories I'd read about people getting g out of their cars as quickly as possible citing build quality issues etc.

I would be lying if I said that the worry of being stuck with a car that was depreciating like a stone didn't stick in my mind too.

No fuss no drama I just voted ferrari for a second time because of the entire package.

I don't think people are down on mclaren...i for one wish them every success. .....i think people are reacting more to your particular posts than anything else. There is a trend in what you continually post and that seems to be that whatever your most recent purchase is happens to be the best thing since sliced bread. Reason seems to go out of the windows and your hyperbole becomes almost ridiculous. No offence mate I'm just calling it as I see it.

[ferdi p]

AndrewD said:

I'm not debating "better". Better is subjective. He said Ferrari have finally caught up. They didn't need to try, they are so far ahead it is unreal. I'd love for McL to be a genuine alternative but it is not. Don't take my opinion for it, the market has spoken. Ferrari's bullst deserves to be royally stuffed down its throat. Unfortunately, the 12c/650s isn't doing that. Hopefully the next car will

Don't agree...

I believe that no matter what Mclaren make or what Car magazines say Ferrari are currently the 'brand' to aspire to. It has nothing to do with the 'better' car. It will take Mclaren many years to get close to Ferrari sales numbers & unless they also start on 'image & bull5hit' they never will!!

Most people I see at Petrol stations (kids & adults) say "love your Ferrari mate"!!

[tuscaneer]

The hardest thing in any industry is to establish a new brand and it's even harder to get a seat at the top table no matter how good your product is. McLaren have got a long hard road ahead of them to influence hardcore car enthusiasts and the general public alike.
It's going to be even harder given the amounts of money these items cost. We can all root for the underdog but when it comes down to £££££££ cold hard logic tends to trump a lot of other considerations wether we'd like to admit it or not

[Shmee]

4 years ago McLaren weren't delivering cars at all, the fact it is possible for a company to go from nothing to even being part of a debate with strong opinions on both sides like this is amazing.

I'm clearly a McLaren man through and through for many reasons but I had been worried the 488 GTB was going to raise the stakes over 650S. I think what it's done is brought Ferrari back on level terms and with the 488 run to go for 5 years from when UK deliveries start at the next turn of the year it won't actually overlap with 650S for that long. When you take the Spider into consideration, good luck getting one of those in the UK inside 18 months! I would hazard a bet that most new supercar customers change their cars more regularly than that and as such it's not even their next car, and maybe not even their next-next car.

The 650S will be replaced at some point, perhaps in 2 more years and this is going to give McLaren a large number of years with what could potentially be a massively more superior product, and that's not taking the 675LT limited run into consideration. I don't think there's anybody else who could achieve what McLaren are doing in such a phenomenally short amount of time, and I cannot wait to see how the brands stack up a few more years down the line.

[GRBF430F1]

Shmee said:

4 years ago McLaren weren't delivering cars at all, the fact it is possible for a company to go from nothing to even being part of a debate with strong opinions on both sides like this is amazing.

I'm clearly a McLaren man through and through for many reasons but I had been worried the 488 GTB was going to raise the stakes over 650S. I think what it's done is brought Ferrari back on level terms and with the 488 run to go for 5 years from when UK deliveries start at the next turn of the year it won't actually overlap with 650S for that long. When you take the Spider into consideration, good luck getting one of those in the UK inside 18 months! I would hazard a bet that most new supercar customers change their cars more regularly than that and as such it's not even their next car, and maybe not even their next-next car.

The 650S will be replaced at some point, perhaps in 2 more years and this is going to give McLaren a large number of years with what could potentially be a massively more superior product, and that's not taking the 675LT limited run into consideration. I don't think there's anybody else who could achieve what McLaren are doing in such a phenomenally short amount of time, and I cannot wait to see how the brands stack up a few more years down the line.

Seconded. And its down the line when the brand has grown that those slow on the up take now realise how good the original low volume production cars like 12C and 650S actually are.

Anyway getting back to the subject - you could do a lot worse than buying a £170k 458 spider but expect to lose £10k pa as per most new(ish) supercars in this category

[boxerTen]

Shmee said:

4 years ago McLaren weren't delivering cars at all, the fact it is possible for a company to go from nothing to even being part of a debate with strong opinions on both sides like this is amazing.

Agree, McLaren stepping straight into top tier is an immense achievement (Lotus for example have tried and tried but without a bespoke engine they're always doomed to failure).

As for sales figures, its a fair bet most McLaren buyers are out and out car nuts, whereas the Ferrari buyers numbers will be padded with a greater proportion who buy on image and prestige. It will take many years for McLaren to attract those less discerning buyers.

I have no particular brand loyalty. When it came down to it, the N/A engine won over the turbocharged unit. Simple as that.

[AndrewD]

ferdi p said:

AndrewD said:

I'm not debating "better". Better is subjective. He said Ferrari have finally caught up. They didn't need to try, they are so far ahead it is unreal. I'd love for McL to be a genuine alternative but it is not. Don't take my opinion for it, the market has spoken. Ferrari's bullst deserves to be royally stuffed down its throat. Unfortunately, the 12c/650s isn't doing that. Hopefully the next car will

Don't agree...

I believe that no matter what Mclaren make or what Car magazines say Ferrari are currently the 'brand' to aspire to. It has nothing to do with the 'better' car. It will take Mclaren many years to get close to Ferrari sales numbers & unless they also start on 'image & bull5hit' they never will!!

Most people I see at Petrol stations (kids & adults) say "love your Ferrari mate"!!

I think you're making my point for me. Ferrari have nothing to "catch up". It is the other way round. I wish McL every good luck doing this, because I am sick to my back teeth with Ferrari's attitude. But to say Ferrari are catching up with McL is silly. When I last looked, the are in business to sell cars, and they are doing a rather better job of that, for many reasons of course, than McL.