New McLaren 650S

[TP321]

£25k margins??

That is daylight robbery....

[LukeyLikey]

TP321 said:

£25k margins??

That is daylight robbery....

I'm no car dealer but I don't think so. It's just over 10%. If they keep a car on average 2 months, interest alone counts for about 1-2% of it! (If they have a car in stock for a year, half of the margin is gone in interest even before you get to book depreciation). Then you have to pay the salesman, which you may not like but they have as much right to earn as the rest of us. Then there is the business overheads which have to get spread over much smaller volume than for, say, a Ford dealer.

Almost every car, even the ones described as 'perfect' by their owners, needs some kind of rectification/repair work, which is rarely cheap. When the new customer arrives in the showroom, I'm sure you don't think they all roll over and pay full price without pushing for some kind of reduction - especially if the car has been in stock for ages.

Long stocking kills a dealer - interest, book deprciation and customer discount, plus it takes up a 'stock' spot that could be occupied by a fast moving car. If a dealer expects to move a car very quickly because of the market, then he will accept a lower margin because his selling costs will be lower and he will turnover the stock quicker. Otherwise he is taking a big risk on moving the car is short enough time to make any profit. If it was easy, more sellers would avoid the dealer all together and keep the margin for themselves but they don't.

Notice I haven't even mentioned the dealer's profit yet.....

Very easy to write dealers off as greedy but there are very few making the type of profit return that would be acceptable to the companies most of us work for.

[johnnyreggae]

And that £ 25k is immediately only about £ 20k due to vat

Edited by johnnyreggae on Tuesday 18th March 11:25

[TP321]

LukeyLikey said:

I'm no car dealer but I don't think so. It's just over 10%. If they keep a car on average 2 months, interest alone counts for about 1-2% of it! (If they have a car in stock for a year, half of the margin is gone in interest even before you get to book depreciation). Then you have to pay the salesman, which you may not like but they have as much right to earn as the rest of us. Then there is the business overheads which have to get spread over much smaller volume than for, say, a Ford dealer.

Almost every car, even the ones described as 'perfect' by their owners, needs some kind of rectification/repair work, which is rarely cheap. When the new customer arrives in the showroom, I'm sure you don't think they all roll over and pay full price without pushing for some kind of reduction - especially if the car has been in stock for ages.

Long stocking kills a dealer - interest, book deprciation and customer discount, plus it takes up a 'stock' spot that could be occupied by a fast moving car. If a dealer expects to move a car very quickly because of the market, then he will accept a lower margin because his selling costs will be lower and he will turnover the stock quicker. Otherwise he is taking a big risk on moving the car is short enough time to make any profit. If it was easy, more sellers would avoid the dealer all together and keep the margin for themselves but they don't.

Notice I haven't even mentioned the dealer's profit yet.....

Very easy to write dealers off as greedy but there are very few making the type of profit return that would be acceptable to the companies most of us work for.

Good points. So if this is the norm, either you buy new and keep it for a long long time or you just buy used and still keep it long enough to "absorb" these high dealer costs with lots of enjoyment and miles..

[LukeyLikey]

TP321 said:

Good points. So if this is the norm, either you buy new and keep it for a long long time or you just buy used and still keep it long enough to "absorb" these high dealer costs with lots of enjoyment and miles..

Yes, with the only exception being if the new car is hard to get - i.e. a new model Ferrari for instance, which often trades over list for a short while and, in some cases, can be sold for more than you paid for it if you sell it early enough.

[TP321]

LukeyLikey said:

Yes, with the only exception being if the new car is hard to get - i.e. a new model Ferrari for instance, which often trades over list for a short while and, in some cases, can be sold for more than you paid for it if you sell it early enough.

So the smart money goes on the Ferrari? How about Lambo? Why cant Mclaren achieve this?

[LukeyLikey]

TP321 said:

So the smart money goes on the Ferrari? How about Lambo? Why cant Mclaren achieve this?

Simple demand and supply. If you make one less car than demand price goes up, one more, price goes down. Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren, all abide by the same rule.

McLaren, as a new brand, should hopefully develop more demand over time. Problem is that in the meantime they need to build a certain amount of cars to make profit. Until demand catches up, residual prices will be soft. Over time though, they could strengthen because if demand continues to increase as brand awareness increases then there will be fewer 'old' cars in the used supply chain.

2012 12C's at around £130k look good value to me and will probably lose very little for the next few years. Only a guess.

[toppstuff]

LukeyLikey said:

TP321 said:

So the smart money goes on the Ferrari? How about Lambo? Why cant Mclaren achieve this?

Simple demand and supply. If you make one less car than demand price goes up, one more, price goes down. Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren, all abide by the same rule.

McLaren, as a new brand, should hopefully develop more demand over time. Problem is that in the meantime they need to build a certain amount of cars to make profit. Until demand catches up, residual prices will be soft. Over time though, they could strengthen because if demand continues to increase as brand awareness increases then there will be fewer 'old' cars in the used supply chain.

2012 12C's at around £130k look good value to me and will probably lose very little for the next few years. Only a guess.

Precisely.

Considering Ferrari have decades and decades of being in this game behind them, you can't expect McLaren to have the same distribution and traction in the market straight away.

Mclaren have done very well indeed in such a short period of time however. And with more models on the way and following the big success of the P1, I think they are on a roll.

We must also be careful not to look at this market through a UK perspective. The global market in the US, Asia and Latin America is important. McLaren are building good distribution , but it is bound to take some time.

I think the outlook is pretty good though.

[Mark ANTAR]

Tony 1234 said:

Not sure where I saw the test but it was 7.29 GT3 v 7.30 12c so I think it can be said they're both about equal performance

Edited by Tony 1234 on Monday 17th March 13:22

The 12C never did a lap of 7:30 on the 'Ring and keep in mind that it was the pre-updated 12C that set the 7:28 lap time. The time could be easily improved with a McLaren test driver behind the wheel. As for the 650S, there's some talk that it will get the Trofeo R tires as an option, now that will make a huge difference to the lap time.

[Nurburgsingh]

Some thoughts Ive been having since sending the 991GT3 back... apologies if its a bit OT

Looking at used MP4 prices I can't seem to draw any kind of feel for whats right, I've seen similarly specced cars with big variations in price. The introduction of the new 650s looks like a facelift and has been called as much.

One of the thing sI really liked about the MP4 when it was first released was the ability to 'patch' the software which means the 2011 cars can have the same power as the 2012/3 cars.. Is that now a problem? I mean a 2K miles 2011 car with the latest software is significantly cheaper than a 2K mile 2013 car.. the question is, why would you pay the extra for a newer car if its the same as an older one?

Have McLaren shot themselves in the used car foot with this?
How long before you ca have your MP4 software and bumper upgrade to 650 spec?

All said and done they are stunning cars and awesomely capable.. so if anyone has one that they are having trouble getting dealers to bid on PM me the details..

[mpbcs]

Nurburgsingh said:

Some thoughts Ive been having since sending the 991GT3 back... apologies if its a bit OT

Looking at used MP4 prices I can't seem to draw any kind of feel for whats right, I've seen similarly specced cars with big variations in price. The introduction of the new 650s looks like a facelift and has been called as much.

One of the thing sI really liked about the MP4 when it was first released was the ability to 'patch' the software which means the 2011 cars can have the same power as the 2012/3 cars.. Is that now a problem? I mean a 2K miles 2011 car with the latest software is significantly cheaper than a 2K mile 2013 car.. the question is, why would you pay the extra for a newer car if its the same as an older one?

Have McLaren shot themselves in the used car foot with this?
How long before you ca have your MP4 software and bumper upgrade to 650 spec?

All said and done they are stunning cars and awesomely capable.. so if anyone has one that they are having trouble getting dealers to bid on PM me the details..

You can't get the 12c upgraded to the 650s engine spec. There are hardware changes to give the power increase. The suspension mounts etc are also different, so I have the feeling the 12c won't be upgraded by dealers from here on.

[LukeyLikey]

Mark ANTAR said:

Tony 1234 said:

Not sure where I saw the test but it was 7.29 GT3 v 7.30 12c so I think it can be said they're both about equal performance

Edited by Tony 1234 on Monday 17th March 13:22

The 12C never did a lap of 7:30 on the 'Ring and keep in mind that it was the pre-updated 12C that set the 7:28 lap time. The time could be easily improved with a McLaren test driver behind the wheel. As for the 650S, there's some talk that it will get the Trofeo R tires as an option, now that will make a huge difference to the lap time.

This is a screen grab from the end of the sport auto video where their guy drives the pre-update 12C around the Nurburgring. Obviously it only has the comparative vehicles up to that point. However, what's interesting is that it is all from the same driver and the same treatment at the track (same length run, standard fluids spec etc.). What is interesting though, is that most of the cars near the 12C are on semi-slicks, whereas the 7:28 12C run was done on P Zero Corsa.

Post upgrade and with similar tyre spec to the other Porshces etc. the 12C would have delivered a much quicker time - possibly nearer to (or even below) 7:20?

What's also interesting is their quote of the cars' weights. The 12C is over 100kg lighter than a 458 and very close to Scud. Having said that, I remember some people talking about Scud being as quick on track as a 458 - this would appear to rubbish those claims. The Scud went around with semi-slicks and posted a slower time than the 458 without. Same driver remember.

[70proof]

thanks for that list.... TBH the most interesting time on that list is the corvette zr1..... very impressive for an american muscle car

[isaldiri]

LukeyLikey said:

This is a screen grab from the end of the sport auto video where their guy drives the pre-update 12C around the Nurburgring. Obviously it only has the comparative vehicles up to that point. However, what's interesting is that it is all from the same driver and the same treatment at the track (same length run, standard fluids spec etc.). What is interesting though, is that most of the cars near the 12C are on semi-slicks, whereas the 7:28 12C run was done on P Zero Corsa.

Post upgrade and with similar tyre spec to the other Porshces etc. the 12C would have delivered a much quicker time - possibly nearer to (or even below) 7:20?

The corsa tyre is considered a semi slick as well i thought? Not quite as aggressive a pilot sport cup but not exactly a standard road tyre either. I don't think the lap time between a trofeo (not that it will fit the 12c properly anyway) and a corsa tyred car is going to be ~10seconds.

[dxbtiger]

Old and new on display outside my office.

Have to say I prefer the 12C, 650S looks like it is trying a bit hard tbh, fon't like the wheels either.

Both Spiders.

[mc_blue]

12C looks so much cleaner IMO.

[mrloudly]

mc_blue said:

12C looks so much cleaner IMO.

I agree entirely! Saw several 650's at the weekend and whilst still a gorgeous car, it did have a bit of a shouty "bolt on" look in
comparison with the 12C. The carbon 650S bits at the bottom of the doors being a classic. Didn't like the chrome effect brake callipers
either, although the big carbon stoppers look gorgeous ;-)

[dxbtiger]

mrloudly said:

although the big carbon stoppers look gorgeous ;-)

I couldn't get over the size of the front disks, huge!

[andrew]

[70proof]

Nice colour....