Why wouldn't I?
Discussion
I have had many exotics and currently have a 2014 12C spider which I have had from new. I have done 9k miles in the first year and think the car is brilliant. I wouldn't discount a late 12C from your thoughts.
The development of the P11 platform has been happening gradually and build improvements are not something invented with the arrival of the 650. The performance of the 12C is staggering. The 458 arrived in 2010 and set a new benchmark for power and performance in this class. The 12C is another significant step on again. It is similar to the Speciale in performance and not too different to the 650.
Advantages for the 650 are less bump-thump from the suspension because of the location points of the suspension being altered and more torque (but you could NEVER call the 12C deficient, you simply don't need any more on the road and you can't often use what the 12C has - full throttle for more than about three seconds and you're in trouble...).
The appearance is personal preference and I don't like the 650 front end but was very pleasantly surprised when I saw the 12C in the flesh - much nicer than photos.
So, in my opinion, the reasons to buy a 650 over a late 12C are only if you prefer the appearance or if you believe the residuals will be better (always remembering you will be starting from a higher base point). There are no doubt some performance improvements but it is definitely in the 'law of diminishing returns' category.
The McLaren driving experience is brilliant. Don't believe the press, these cars are incredible. They do things differently to Ferrari and I'm glad about that but they are intoxicating, exciting and inspiring all in their own way. And the speed, that stays with you and never gets boring! Even if you think you are used to supercars, this needs a recalibration, they are that fast.
The development of the P11 platform has been happening gradually and build improvements are not something invented with the arrival of the 650. The performance of the 12C is staggering. The 458 arrived in 2010 and set a new benchmark for power and performance in this class. The 12C is another significant step on again. It is similar to the Speciale in performance and not too different to the 650.
Advantages for the 650 are less bump-thump from the suspension because of the location points of the suspension being altered and more torque (but you could NEVER call the 12C deficient, you simply don't need any more on the road and you can't often use what the 12C has - full throttle for more than about three seconds and you're in trouble...).
The appearance is personal preference and I don't like the 650 front end but was very pleasantly surprised when I saw the 12C in the flesh - much nicer than photos.
So, in my opinion, the reasons to buy a 650 over a late 12C are only if you prefer the appearance or if you believe the residuals will be better (always remembering you will be starting from a higher base point). There are no doubt some performance improvements but it is definitely in the 'law of diminishing returns' category.
The McLaren driving experience is brilliant. Don't believe the press, these cars are incredible. They do things differently to Ferrari and I'm glad about that but they are intoxicating, exciting and inspiring all in their own way. And the speed, that stays with you and never gets boring! Even if you think you are used to supercars, this needs a recalibration, they are that fast.
Edited by LukeyLikey on Monday 4th May 08:56
That puts the later 12C into a bit more perspective, thanks. Wasn't aware there were other gradual improvements, only knew about the Iris and HP upgrades. Will now add that to the mix!
The 12C I drove was a 2013 car and felt fantastic and, in a test drive, felt 'looser' (in a good way) than the 650 I drove, which i put down the the 650 being brand new.
The 12C I drove was a 2013 car and felt fantastic and, in a test drive, felt 'looser' (in a good way) than the 650 I drove, which i put down the the 650 being brand new.
I have a well spec'd 62 plate 12c with 8k miles on it which I've owned for nearly one year. To date its been a very enjoyable ownership apart from one software blip which McLaren Assist took care of very professionally - no mechanical issues whatsoever. The IRIS is a known issue but to be honest I'm happy to listen to the noise of the car over music or taking calls on the mobile.
12c's are certainly getting rarer in the classifieds - I've been monitoring prices/values since February as I'm starting to get itchy feet and possibly looking to replace the 12c with something else - I'm currently struggling to justify the financial gap from the 12c to the 650s - but I haven't driven one yet so my mindset may change.
I took a 991 Porsche Turbo S out on a test drive earlier today, fast, competent and engaging - but ultimately missing the WOW factor the 12c gives me. Offered £118k trade in for the 12c - not sure whether this is good, bad, fair in the current 12c market place.
12c's are certainly getting rarer in the classifieds - I've been monitoring prices/values since February as I'm starting to get itchy feet and possibly looking to replace the 12c with something else - I'm currently struggling to justify the financial gap from the 12c to the 650s - but I haven't driven one yet so my mindset may change.
I took a 991 Porsche Turbo S out on a test drive earlier today, fast, competent and engaging - but ultimately missing the WOW factor the 12c gives me. Offered £118k trade in for the 12c - not sure whether this is good, bad, fair in the current 12c market place.
118k doesn't sound bad considering that's how much dealers are asking for on sale prices. Maybe it's because there aren't that many on the used market or not that many 'right' ones. I think the shape really does grow on you over time and there doesn't appear to be much difference spec wise between that and a 650 which you wouldn't be able to upgrade. Regarding the 911, I think it's a nice solid car but as many have said, there isn't much drama to it. Cabin is generic 911 which isn't a bad thing but just very mass manufactured. With any mclaren you get best of both worlds
Pluggy101 said:
I have a well spec'd 62 plate 12c with 8k miles on it which I've owned for nearly one year. To date its been a very enjoyable ownership apart from one software blip which McLaren Assist took care of very professionally - no mechanical issues whatsoever. The IRIS is a known issue but to be honest I'm happy to listen to the noise of the car over music or taking calls on the mobile.
12c's are certainly getting rarer in the classifieds - I've been monitoring prices/values since February as I'm starting to get itchy feet and possibly looking to replace the 12c with something else - I'm currently struggling to justify the financial gap from the 12c to the 650s - but I haven't driven one yet so my mindset may change.
I took a 991 Porsche Turbo S out on a test drive earlier today, fast, competent and engaging - but ultimately missing the WOW factor the 12c gives me. Offered £118k trade in for the 12c - not sure whether this is good, bad, fair in the current 12c market place.
You need a good drive in a 650S, so much better than the already brilliant 12C! Methinks you'll be shocked!12c's are certainly getting rarer in the classifieds - I've been monitoring prices/values since February as I'm starting to get itchy feet and possibly looking to replace the 12c with something else - I'm currently struggling to justify the financial gap from the 12c to the 650s - but I haven't driven one yet so my mindset may change.
I took a 991 Porsche Turbo S out on a test drive earlier today, fast, competent and engaging - but ultimately missing the WOW factor the 12c gives me. Offered £118k trade in for the 12c - not sure whether this is good, bad, fair in the current 12c market place.
mrloudly said:
You need a good drive in a 650S, so much better than the already brilliant 12C! Methinks you'll be shocked!
Bit of buyer's confirmation there perhaps.. so I'll match that as someone who stayed with the 12c by saying while the 650 is definitely better in some respects it's not necessarily as much better as is made out to be by somejournos and new 650 owners and in some respects worse in my opinion... 
so there... we're even...2 - 1
650S improves on 12C in every area IMHO. Testament to how great a car the 650S is McLaren started from the already awesome 12C addressing all the areas of early criticism to perfect the product.
Forget the performance improvements (extra 25 bhp & 70lb/ft torque ) as we are splitting hairs there but on a subjective emotional/feel level the car feels chalk and cheese compared to the more sterile 12C
I know a 12C owner will never agree or be able to justify the price difference and I can understand that but so big was the difference in my eyes I went £80k or 50% over my original 12 spider budget to secure a 650spider
Does that make financial sense, no probably not. Was it worth it, yes every penny IMHO.
Judging by the quick turnover of used 650S cars for sale at circa £200k I'm not the only person that thinks so and one of your biggest problems will be sourcing one with the very limited numbers available
Best value for money is still an early 12c but the best car is definitely the 650s.
You pays your money and you takes your choice, either way you won't be disappointed
650S improves on 12C in every area IMHO. Testament to how great a car the 650S is McLaren started from the already awesome 12C addressing all the areas of early criticism to perfect the product.
Forget the performance improvements (extra 25 bhp & 70lb/ft torque ) as we are splitting hairs there but on a subjective emotional/feel level the car feels chalk and cheese compared to the more sterile 12C
I know a 12C owner will never agree or be able to justify the price difference and I can understand that but so big was the difference in my eyes I went £80k or 50% over my original 12 spider budget to secure a 650spider
Does that make financial sense, no probably not. Was it worth it, yes every penny IMHO.
Judging by the quick turnover of used 650S cars for sale at circa £200k I'm not the only person that thinks so and one of your biggest problems will be sourcing one with the very limited numbers available
Best value for money is still an early 12c but the best car is definitely the 650s.
You pays your money and you takes your choice, either way you won't be disappointed
Funnily enough, performance between the two hasn't come into my thinking (much) as they are both faster than anything I've previously experienced and probably faster than most things out on the road. My limited experiences of the two also indicate the 12C brings a fantastic level of comfort on the poor roads we have here, as does the 650S I'm sure: they are both (much) faster and more plyable than my previous cars.
Being on a budget (the wife and 14 kids have to come somewhere in the consideration) and coming to this forum has helped me appreciate better the options on offer from the c£100k early cars to the £200k+ newer models. Clearly I would expect (and hope) that there would be differences between the early 12C and 650S. However, given the 'base' car is so good my questions have come down to reliability (struggling to find horror stories), vehicle lifter (need to get one to try it out on my drive) and finally, because there are so few cars on sale: do I need sports exhaust (coming from an Aston Virage ...for the uninitiated think of the newer DB9...not as raucous as a Vantage!) on this point I'm going to do some personal research this weekend and take a look and listen to a standard exhaust.
The carbon interior is growing on me as well.
I've been looking for under a month now, which is a lifetime for my impulse purchases!
More test drives are necessary.
Being on a budget (the wife and 14 kids have to come somewhere in the consideration) and coming to this forum has helped me appreciate better the options on offer from the c£100k early cars to the £200k+ newer models. Clearly I would expect (and hope) that there would be differences between the early 12C and 650S. However, given the 'base' car is so good my questions have come down to reliability (struggling to find horror stories), vehicle lifter (need to get one to try it out on my drive) and finally, because there are so few cars on sale: do I need sports exhaust (coming from an Aston Virage ...for the uninitiated think of the newer DB9...not as raucous as a Vantage!) on this point I'm going to do some personal research this weekend and take a look and listen to a standard exhaust.
The carbon interior is growing on me as well.
I've been looking for under a month now, which is a lifetime for my impulse purchases!
More test drives are necessary.
Edited by SELON on Tuesday 5th May 23:19
isaldiri said:
mrloudly said:
You need a good drive in a 650S, so much better than the already brilliant 12C! Methinks you'll be shocked!
Bit of buyer's confirmation there perhaps.. so I'll match that as someone who stayed with the 12c by saying while the 650 is definitely better in some respects it's not necessarily as much better as is made out to be by somejournos and new 650 owners and in some respects worse in my opinion... so there... we're even...
isaldiri said:
IMO only obviously - steering, turbo lag and suspension.
?????? Really struggling to see how any of those 3 are anything but better on the 650S, certainly no worse than 12C.Steering is quicker, more precise with a bit more weight which I personally prefer.
Turbo lag is minimal and no different to 12C but loads more torque.
Suspension has greater range and no tub knocking which is noticeably better.
I think this is why most 12C owners stick to their argument about not liking the P1 family headlights as its the 1, lets call it "unique" feature, that I personally always thought was a little too bland and conservative on 12C.
12C is a great car and fantastic value for money but IMHO the 650S is better in every way and totally under appreciated and undervalued. I think it took several years for people to wake up to how good 12C actually was by which time it had become incredible value for money. Its apparent from 650S used car sales that the penny has already dropped with this newer updated model
McLaren don't take a great car and as part of its product development make it worse in anyway at all
My advice for what its worth is : if the decision is dictated by logic, finances, depreciation etc..... pick up an
early 12C ( personal preference spider ) as its 90% of the car for 66.6% of the price.
Spec wise I would want sports exhaust, carbon interior, Elec heated seats, lightweight wheels ( diamond cut but this can be re-done),vehicle lift. Colour wise a non silver, non black car but by the time you tick all those boxes I would guess the choice is limited and unlikely to increase until maybe some owners choose to go for a new 570S potentially
RamboLambo said:
?????? Really struggling to see how any of those 3 are anything but better on the 650S, certainly no worse than 12C.
Steering is quicker, more precise with a bit more weight which I personally prefer.
Turbo lag is minimal and no different to 12C but loads more torque.
Suspension has greater range and no tub knocking which is noticeably better.
I think this is why most 12C owners stick to their argument about not liking the P1 family headlights as its the 1, lets call it "unique" feature, that I personally always thought was a little too bland and conservative on 12C.
12C is a great car and fantastic value for money but IMHO the 650S is better in every way and totally under appreciated and undervalued. I think it took several years for people to wake up to how good 12C actually was by which time it had become incredible value for money. Its apparent from 650S used car sales that the penny has already dropped with this newer updated model
McLaren don't take a great car and as part of its product development make it worse in anyway at all
My advice for what its worth is : if the decision is dictated by logic, finances, depreciation etc..... pick up an
early 12C ( personal preference spider ) as its 90% of the car for 66.6% of the price.
Note - I said IMO. Steering is quicker, more precise with a bit more weight which I personally prefer.
Turbo lag is minimal and no different to 12C but loads more torque.
Suspension has greater range and no tub knocking which is noticeably better.
I think this is why most 12C owners stick to their argument about not liking the P1 family headlights as its the 1, lets call it "unique" feature, that I personally always thought was a little too bland and conservative on 12C.
12C is a great car and fantastic value for money but IMHO the 650S is better in every way and totally under appreciated and undervalued. I think it took several years for people to wake up to how good 12C actually was by which time it had become incredible value for money. Its apparent from 650S used car sales that the penny has already dropped with this newer updated model
McLaren don't take a great car and as part of its product development make it worse in anyway at all
My advice for what its worth is : if the decision is dictated by logic, finances, depreciation etc..... pick up an
early 12C ( personal preference spider ) as its 90% of the car for 66.6% of the price.
Steering - it's a lot quicker and more weight I agree but it's lost a considerable amount of feel to me. More lag - it is definitely there and obviously more at high rpm vs the 12c. More power = more boost = more lag. Simples. Suspension - the 650 is much firmer in normal just to make it seem more 'sporty' in the normal modes, in sport and track it's firmer but that's ok. I'll take a more cosseted ride when I'm just trying to get from A to B thanks with some tub thump.
Against that as I said the 650's best feature is the build quality vs the 12c. It feels bolted together much better and if I could get a 12c that felt the same I'd have little hesitation in changing up. the 650 again as I said is definitely faster and better in some respects but hardly every respect.
I'm glad the 650 is worth every penny to you that you paid extra for. However, if it was anything like as much an improvement you suggest it is over the 12c (which funnily enough you later say the 12c is only 90% of the 650 but from your description sterile 12c/chalk and cheese etc, shouldn't it be say 66% only?), without sounding like an idiot I could buy one tomorrow if I so wanted (or last year when I drove the 650) as there is plenty of dealer inventory lying around both then and now. Do spare me the nonsense about 12c owners not being able to justify the difference.
[/footnote]
Edited by isaldiri on Wednesday 6th May 10:42
isaldiri said:
mrloudly said:
Aside from a personal view on looks, where is the 650S "Worse" than a 12C? Having owned a 12C Coupe for two years and my 650S Spider for nearly six months now I'm struggling to understand
IMO only obviously - steering, turbo lag and suspension."wallops" in much lower down! Think you need a proper drive in one ;-)
Increased Turbo Lag is visible here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS1EKOAuD_w
Edited by mrloudly on Wednesday 6th May 13:03
mrloudly said:
Yes suspension is firmer, but the only thing you notice is a lack of crashing over bumps because of the new geometry. The steering gives more feel, some may like some may not. Turbo lag is virtually non-existent compared to the 12C because the torque
"wallops" in much lower down! Think you need a proper drive in one ;-)
Increased Turbo Lag is visible here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS1EKOAuD_w
Yeah really don't get any of the points made. Yeah greater torque over wider rev band means the 12c looks to be in reverse."wallops" in much lower down! Think you need a proper drive in one ;-)
Increased Turbo Lag is visible here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS1EKOAuD_w
Edited by mrloudly on Wednesday 6th May 13:03
As someone who was new to brand I drove both cars extensively back to back but the improvements were pretty clear to me immediately.
I think it must be a sub conscious thing as I felt the same way about 430 Scuderia versus my old F430 spider before changing up.
It was difficult to understand all the fuss and the twice the price thing until you drove one properly for a period of time.
That's how I see 12C to 650S. Of course its not twice the car for the money hence why I say you do get 90% with the 12C but its the extra 10% that changes the overall experience. Whilst it might be the final 10% the "feel/emotion" is like chalk and cheese.
That's not going to make a lot of sense or difference to most people hence why I advise the original poster down the 12C route given his thought process.
The consensus of opinion on McLaren life of owners that have made the change from 12C to 650S is overwhelmingly very positive despite the hefty price tag attached
mrloudly said:
Yes suspension is firmer, but the only thing you notice is a lack of crashing over bumps because of the new geometry. The steering gives more feel, some may like some may not. Turbo lag is virtually non-existent compared to the 12C because the torque
"wallops" in much lower down! Think you need a proper drive in one ;-)
Increased Turbo Lag is visible here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS1EKOAuD_w
Is watching this video going to cost me money?? "wallops" in much lower down! Think you need a proper drive in one ;-)
Increased Turbo Lag is visible here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS1EKOAuD_w
Edited by mrloudly on Wednesday 6th May 13:03
I hope owning a McLaren isn't going to be like this video...
http://youtu.be/K2k1iRD2f-c
To be fair I have found you all to be very positive and really helpful in my initiation to buying a McLaren, especially those that have PM'd me with good advice, real experience and insights and nothing but positivity to whatever car I discuss.
It's very much appreciated.
http://youtu.be/K2k1iRD2f-c
To be fair I have found you all to be very positive and really helpful in my initiation to buying a McLaren, especially those that have PM'd me with good advice, real experience and insights and nothing but positivity to whatever car I discuss.
It's very much appreciated.
Edited by SELON on Wednesday 6th May 19:18
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