Where to spend £90k?
Discussion
Chris355 said:
12c/650/570s all have subjectively weak looking rear ends imo. They fixed it with the 600LT, which looks incredible from the back.
Bang on the money Chris355, back end on the 600LT is best in the business, top exit exhausts seal the deal,, I am rather bias though 
( and you can’t buy one for £90K before anyone says )
Edited by Davyt on Monday 13th March 20:44
Davyt said:
Chris355 said:
12c/650/570s all have subjectively weak looking rear ends imo. They fixed it with the 600LT, which looks incredible from the back.
Bang on the money Chris355, back end on the 600LT is best in the business, top exit exhausts seal the deal,, I am rather bias though ( and you can’t buy one for £90K before anyone says )Edited by Davyt on Monday 13th March 20:44
From some angles I don’t particularly like the rear of the 570s/570GT…however the car looks v good overall and I’ve owned a 570. I think the 600LT looks a lot more aggressive with a very deep diffuser and the overall design is v cohesive more so than a 650s imo…all great cars end of the day just comes down to budget and what you personally prefer .
Its all very personal but having driven most of them:-
12C - brilliant car, proper top end buzz and looks stunning. Like a proper old skool turbo it has more shove at the top but also can catch you out. Supreme touring car too. Any niggles would have been ironed out by now. Main issues just panel corrosion and over zealous warning systems. 95% of all errors can be cleared with an OBD reader. Mechanically very reliable.
650s - a 12C + 5% better in most areas and with improvements in most areas. Buy over a 12C if you prefer the looks, If not stick with the 12C.
570s - Again a brilliant drivers car. Have driven back to back with the 12C & 650s. It is more playful and alert at low speeds, under 50 mph, feels more 'Lotus' like so can give the impression of a better drivers car. You need to spend time in all 3 as the 12C/650s comes alive at higher speeds, above 50 mph, where they really excel in almost every discernible area over the sports series. The 570s has all the same corrosion issues as the P11 cars but adds in a multitude of door, window, locking issues which can be a pain and AFAIK are still not fully resolved.
570GT - Driven immediately back to back with an S you can actually feel the slower steering and softer touch everywhere. IMHO looks better than a 570s but I would need a 570GTS (I think they did one) as its just lacking that last bit of fizz. I also borrowed one for a week away. We took the luggage out of our 12C and it would not fit in the 570GT. That really surprised me, we had to unpack our cases into carrier bags. The 12c felt much more special and more exciting to drive. However the slightly softer settings in the 570GT make it a very good car in the wet. I drove one for an hour in a torrential downpour and the grip was astonishing, much better than the S and P11 cars. So if you use in winter a lot could be a good choice.
I have not driven a 540c so can't comment. This is where the subjective element comes in, The 570S has never done anything for me in the looks department. And that's not just outside but inside too with the digital dash. But each to their own, cars are very personal and I adore the 12C, I just think its one of the best looking, well proportioned supercars ever made, outside and in. Its also the smallest, even smaller than a 570S can hold more luggage, has the active aero and suspension and when touring can easily do 30+mpg. Only the 675LT betters the 12C/650S.
A lot comes down to looks and which you prefer. You have to like the look of a car to fall for it. They are all quite similar in reality and I am describing tiny differences that unless driven back to back you would probably not pick up on. In isolation they are all 10/10 drivers cars so there is not a bad choice. Just go for the one you prefer the look of.
12C - brilliant car, proper top end buzz and looks stunning. Like a proper old skool turbo it has more shove at the top but also can catch you out. Supreme touring car too. Any niggles would have been ironed out by now. Main issues just panel corrosion and over zealous warning systems. 95% of all errors can be cleared with an OBD reader. Mechanically very reliable.
650s - a 12C + 5% better in most areas and with improvements in most areas. Buy over a 12C if you prefer the looks, If not stick with the 12C.
570s - Again a brilliant drivers car. Have driven back to back with the 12C & 650s. It is more playful and alert at low speeds, under 50 mph, feels more 'Lotus' like so can give the impression of a better drivers car. You need to spend time in all 3 as the 12C/650s comes alive at higher speeds, above 50 mph, where they really excel in almost every discernible area over the sports series. The 570s has all the same corrosion issues as the P11 cars but adds in a multitude of door, window, locking issues which can be a pain and AFAIK are still not fully resolved.
570GT - Driven immediately back to back with an S you can actually feel the slower steering and softer touch everywhere. IMHO looks better than a 570s but I would need a 570GTS (I think they did one) as its just lacking that last bit of fizz. I also borrowed one for a week away. We took the luggage out of our 12C and it would not fit in the 570GT. That really surprised me, we had to unpack our cases into carrier bags. The 12c felt much more special and more exciting to drive. However the slightly softer settings in the 570GT make it a very good car in the wet. I drove one for an hour in a torrential downpour and the grip was astonishing, much better than the S and P11 cars. So if you use in winter a lot could be a good choice.
I have not driven a 540c so can't comment. This is where the subjective element comes in, The 570S has never done anything for me in the looks department. And that's not just outside but inside too with the digital dash. But each to their own, cars are very personal and I adore the 12C, I just think its one of the best looking, well proportioned supercars ever made, outside and in. Its also the smallest, even smaller than a 570S can hold more luggage, has the active aero and suspension and when touring can easily do 30+mpg. Only the 675LT betters the 12C/650S.
A lot comes down to looks and which you prefer. You have to like the look of a car to fall for it. They are all quite similar in reality and I am describing tiny differences that unless driven back to back you would probably not pick up on. In isolation they are all 10/10 drivers cars so there is not a bad choice. Just go for the one you prefer the look of.
Edited by Bispal on Wednesday 15th March 17:41
Bispal said:
Its all very personal but having driven most of them:-
above 50 mph, where they really pull away from the 570s in almost every discernible area.
Sorry, that is utter nonsense and been discussed widely on here. There are no figures to suggest the 12c/650s is significantly faster in any area.above 50 mph, where they really pull away from the 570s in almost every discernible area.
Streetbeat said:
Sorry, that is utter nonsense and been discussed widely on here. There are no figures to suggest the 12c/650s is significantly faster in any area.
No, it's only you that continues to deny the basics. 650s has +/-80 bhp more than 570s and pretty much the same weight. Does it matter at road speeds? Not really. But to ignore the increased bhp/tonne is silly.
123RY said:
No, it's only you that continues to deny the basics. 650s has +/-80 bhp more than 570s and pretty much the same weight. Does it matter at road speeds? Not really. But to ignore the increased bhp/tonne is silly.
And still no one has got the numbers/stats to back it up....just opinions and bun dynos to jutsify its the better Mclaren because you own one.Again for the hard of reading: Mclarens own figures, 650s 0 to 124 8.6
12c " 9.2
570s " 9.5
.6 (12c) or .9 (650s) of a second is not "significantly" faster, maybe the gearing is taller in the 650s/12c, its all well and good quoting "basics" "physics" (bhp per tonne) but thems the facts from Mclaren, so i will leave you to your rose coloured 12c/650s glasses and just for ref, 12c has 616hp so even less likely to pull away in all areas as is Bispals opinion.
Bispal said:
As i said that was my personal experience, and is the same as many I have spoken too. The p11 cars have more top end fizz. Don't apologise, you can have your opinion too but its not utter nonsense to me, its what I felt driving back to back.
I have to agree and per my earlier post and link provided - so do others. I chose a 650 over a 570 for precisely this reason. The 570 didn't actually feel more exciting than the V12 Vantage I came to the test in - but the 650 did.I'm not saying this to justify the car I own, but saying why I chose the car I did.
And I actually prefer the uncluttered, well-integrated rear/wing. The 570 is a bit too rococo - with and odd-bits-cobbled-together kind of look. All subjective, of course.
Here's my original post from way back when
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
FWIW here are lap times with the same driver on a very familiar for me WIllow Springs track (these days I'm on Oulton Park)
And this is from Car and Driver's Lightning Lap leaderboard - again same driver, same track
Of course, not night and day, but certainly enough to say my butt dyno worked
Edited by 12pack on Tuesday 14th March 13:10
I had a 540 for a couple of weeks as a courtesy car when I bought my first 650.
I don't really know (or care) what official figures say - the 650 felt much faster, simply because of the way the power was delivered. At higher revs, it feels like it very suddenly gets much faster - whereas the 540 lacked that, and felt much more linear. As somebody already mentioned, the 650 feels a bit more "old school" turbo, whereas the 540 didn't to me.
I don't really know (or care) what official figures say - the 650 felt much faster, simply because of the way the power was delivered. At higher revs, it feels like it very suddenly gets much faster - whereas the 540 lacked that, and felt much more linear. As somebody already mentioned, the 650 feels a bit more "old school" turbo, whereas the 540 didn't to me.
There was a good car throttle article on the differences back in the day.
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/6-ways-the-mclare...
To quote that article:-
After driving a 570S and the gorgeous Volcano Red 650S Spider you see here back-to-back, I was taken aback by just how different they felt. If you look at the performance stats there’s not a huge amount in it: the 650S will do 0-62mph in three seconds dead but the 570S isn’t far behind, doing the same in 3.2 seconds. But the mid-range clout of the 650S feels far more potent, and the power delivery much more aggressive. Put it this way: the 650S is a lot more keen to light up the rear boots under heavy acceleration than the 570S. What’s also interesting is what happens when you wind these cars right around to the redline. It’s something you need to do in both cars, with peak power for the 650S coming in at 7200rpm, and 7400rpm in the 570S. But not long after 6000rpm there’s a noticeable drop-off for the 570S, whereas in the 650S, it gets more exciting the more you crank it round
I don't have a 12C anymore and have no skin the in game, just passing on my findings of how the 2 cars drove on the same day, back to back. There are many cars with similar acceleration figures that drive completely differently, 0-60/100/200 don't give any clue to the feel of the performance delivery. Try a circa MY2000 986 Boxster back to back with a Honda S2000 and a Subaru Impreza of the same vintage, all with almost the same 0-60 and they will all feel very, very different. Naturally many prefer one over the other but its a personal choice. I prefer the top end fizz of the P11 cars over the sports series, I felt it and I don't really care what the figures say, my seat of the pants opinion was good enough for me.
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/6-ways-the-mclare...
To quote that article:-
After driving a 570S and the gorgeous Volcano Red 650S Spider you see here back-to-back, I was taken aback by just how different they felt. If you look at the performance stats there’s not a huge amount in it: the 650S will do 0-62mph in three seconds dead but the 570S isn’t far behind, doing the same in 3.2 seconds. But the mid-range clout of the 650S feels far more potent, and the power delivery much more aggressive. Put it this way: the 650S is a lot more keen to light up the rear boots under heavy acceleration than the 570S. What’s also interesting is what happens when you wind these cars right around to the redline. It’s something you need to do in both cars, with peak power for the 650S coming in at 7200rpm, and 7400rpm in the 570S. But not long after 6000rpm there’s a noticeable drop-off for the 570S, whereas in the 650S, it gets more exciting the more you crank it round
I don't have a 12C anymore and have no skin the in game, just passing on my findings of how the 2 cars drove on the same day, back to back. There are many cars with similar acceleration figures that drive completely differently, 0-60/100/200 don't give any clue to the feel of the performance delivery. Try a circa MY2000 986 Boxster back to back with a Honda S2000 and a Subaru Impreza of the same vintage, all with almost the same 0-60 and they will all feel very, very different. Naturally many prefer one over the other but its a personal choice. I prefer the top end fizz of the P11 cars over the sports series, I felt it and I don't really care what the figures say, my seat of the pants opinion was good enough for me.
Streetbeat said:
And still no one has got the numbers/stats to back it up....just opinions and bun dynos to jutsify its the better Mclaren because you own one.
Again for the hard of reading: Mclarens own figures, 650s 0 to 124 8.6
12c " 9.2
570s " 9.5
.6 (12c) or .9 (650s) of a second is not "significantly" faster, maybe the gearing is taller in the 650s/12c, its all well and good quoting "basics" "physics" (bhp per tonne) but thems the facts from Mclaren, so i will leave you to your rose coloured 12c/650s glasses and just for ref, 12c has 616hp so even less likely to pull away in all areas as is Bispals opinion.
Lots to dissect here.Again for the hard of reading: Mclarens own figures, 650s 0 to 124 8.6
12c " 9.2
570s " 9.5
.6 (12c) or .9 (650s) of a second is not "significantly" faster, maybe the gearing is taller in the 650s/12c, its all well and good quoting "basics" "physics" (bhp per tonne) but thems the facts from Mclaren, so i will leave you to your rose coloured 12c/650s glasses and just for ref, 12c has 616hp so even less likely to pull away in all areas as is Bispals opinion.
Physics clearly an uphill for you. 0.9s over that short a sprint is indeed significant. Over just a 1/4 mile the 650s would be over 40 yards ahead. Or about 8 car lengths. Definitely noticeable.
Taller gearing would result in a slower sprint to 124mph.
And finally, as has been said time and time before, we are not claiming it is the better car because it is faster. Just simply that the numbers paint the picture well enough that there is a difference in the outright pace between the two.
Edited by 123RY on Tuesday 14th March 12:49
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