New McLaren 650S
Discussion
FeelingLucky said:
No kidding!!
Barely strung together.
Class.Barely strung together.
I always wondered why people couldn't understand me! LOL
But my point stands and is reality.
As an ex 12c owner I think I'm in a position to illustrate what is happening with ex McLaren owners.
I had my car for a year and enjoyed it, very fast etc, but as stated, I'm not sure I'd go back because of massive depreciation and lack of the intangible something.
I'll always buy Ferrari, they are an event, especially when they catch fire!
I'll always buy Porsche because I love Gt3s and the low cost if ownership(depreciation)
But when I think McLaren, I think Porsche with massive depreciation.
It's just the way it is, and that's a problem for McLaren.
Phew... I just sold my 12C ahead of this news. McLaren must have upset quite a few newish owners this week. I was warned, but yes I can confirm that when calling 3 official McLaren dealers to ask if they would bid anything for my car not one called me back.
They are beautifully built cars with wonderful detail inside and out, but with zero dealer support come resale, they'll always be a dicey proposition. They also need to address the sound it makes - with the sports exhaust fitted it became irritating. I really wanted to love everything about it because of what it is and what they are trying to achieve.
They are beautifully built cars with wonderful detail inside and out, but with zero dealer support come resale, they'll always be a dicey proposition. They also need to address the sound it makes - with the sports exhaust fitted it became irritating. I really wanted to love everything about it because of what it is and what they are trying to achieve.
Edited by polar8 on Friday 21st February 09:42
polar8 said:
Phew... I just sold my 12C ahead of this news. McLaren must have upset quite a few newish owners this week. I was warned, but yes I can confirm that when calling 3 official McLaren dealers to ask if they would bid anything for my car not one called me back.
They are beautifully built cars but with zero dealer support come resale, it's always a dicey proposition. Plus the sound it made at all times with the sports exhaust fitted was simply awful. I really wanted to love everything about it because of what it is and what they are trying to achieve.
I'm guessing there are going to be many that we're not lucky as you and I ? They are beautifully built cars but with zero dealer support come resale, it's always a dicey proposition. Plus the sound it made at all times with the sports exhaust fitted was simply awful. I really wanted to love everything about it because of what it is and what they are trying to achieve.
Have gone to something Italian by any chance?
toppstuff said:
JPF40 said:
I think its the beginning of the end for McLaren with this 650s, it maybe even faster, so what, the market has already spoken and that's NOT what sells.
A great of people who have bought into the 12c have come out and gone back to other marques that deliver that intangible something!
I very much doubt that they'll return for repeat business.
I think this post is just a lot of wrong words strung together.A great of people who have bought into the 12c have come out and gone back to other marques that deliver that intangible something!
I very much doubt that they'll return for repeat business.
There are plenty of people out there who do not want the "intangible something" you describe, which others variously describe as "passion" or "soul" or other such garbage.
There are plenty of people who simply do not want the Italian rivals.
There are plenty of people who are looking for something more interesting and exotic than a Porsche, but able to be an easy daily driver.
For these people, there is McLaren. There really is no point in McLaren trying to be like an Italian car maker. The Italians already have them.
McLaren must carve out its own market. And they are doing this very, very well.
I would happily own a 650s. I have no desire to own a 458, or a Gallardo. I am not alone in this view.
At this stage I'm voting 991 GT3 RS...but the Speciale is gaining favour....we shall see
It seems strange, the 12c is as quick as a 991GT3 around a race track and as quick as 700bhp+ Ferrari F12 in a straight line aswell as being as comfy as a BMW 5 series. I dont actually understand why its not been a huge success. I can only assume its the looks of the car.
The 650S's performance figures shows how far junior supercars have came as i cant think of one car from Maranello or Stuttgart bar the LaFerrara/918 that could keep up with it. I will be very suprised if the Speciale or new Huracan can get close to the 650S.
The 650S's performance figures shows how far junior supercars have came as i cant think of one car from Maranello or Stuttgart bar the LaFerrara/918 that could keep up with it. I will be very suprised if the Speciale or new Huracan can get close to the 650S.
I find it strange that McLaren dealers are not actively buying & selling used 12cs as this is where they need to make their money, as do most car dealers. Whilst the 650s offers a few facelift features and more power I have the feeling it seems to be a bit of a rollout model. I cannot see too many 12c owners trading up (and taking a painful financial hit) as I am not sure it offers a lot more other than the cosmetic upgrade - this car is plenty fast as it is. Much as I love my 12c, if I were trading up it would be to a Huracan not a 650s. The lack of support to existing owners in making a marketplace for the 12c has been noted by many and it will haunt McLaren for years to come. The 650s has upset a lot of existing customers who should have formed the bedrock for future model sales. They should have brought out the P13 and/or tried to keep the 650s as a special edition of the 12c rather than sweep away the 12c altogether.
Edited by propaganda on Friday 21st February 11:55
I'm someone who would have considered a 12C purchase in the next 12 months, but not anymore.
Too many stories from existing owners, total lack of support, and for me the 650s has now killed it off too soon. 650s could have been released as a facelift 12c rather than totally different model, just the same as other makers do.
Very disappointing.
Too many stories from existing owners, total lack of support, and for me the 650s has now killed it off too soon. 650s could have been released as a facelift 12c rather than totally different model, just the same as other makers do.
Very disappointing.
UH-Matt said:
I'm someone who would have considered a 12C purchase in the next 12 months, but not anymore.
Too many stories from existing owners, total lack of support, and for me the 650s has now killed it off too soon. 650s could have been released as a facelift 12c rather than totally different model, just the same as other makers do.
Very disappointing.
What lack of support are you talking about? Too many stories from existing owners, total lack of support, and for me the 650s has now killed it off too soon. 650s could have been released as a facelift 12c rather than totally different model, just the same as other makers do.
Very disappointing.
propaganda said:
Whilst the 650s offers a few facelift features and more power I have the feeling it seems to be a bit of a rollout model. I cannot see too many 12c owners trading up (and taking a painful financial hit) as I am not sure it offers a lot more other than the cosmetic upgrade - this car is plenty fast as it is. Much as I love my 12c, if I were trading up it would be to a Huracan not a 650s. The lack of support to existing owners in making a marketplace for the 12c has been noted by many and it will haunt McLaren for years to come. The 650s has upset a lot of existing customers who should have formed the bedrock for future model sales. They should have brought out the P13 and/or tried to keep the 650s as a special edition of the 12c rather than sweep away the 12c altogether.
I think there's a lot of sense in this (except the trading up to a Huracan bit!)Edited by propaganda on Friday 21st February 11:55
propaganda said:
I find it strange that McLaren dealers are not actively buying & selling used 12cs as this is where they need to make their money, as do most car dealers. Whilst the 650s offers a few facelift features and more power I have the feeling it seems to be a bit of a rollout model. I cannot see too many 12c owners trading up (and taking a painful financial hit) as I am not sure it offers a lot more other than the cosmetic upgrade - this car is plenty fast as it is. Much as I love my 12c, if I were trading up it would be to a Huracan not a 650s. The lack of support to existing owners in making a marketplace for the 12c has been noted by many and it will haunt McLaren for years to come. The 650s has upset a lot of existing customers who should have formed the bedrock for future model sales. They should have brought out the P13 and/or tried to keep the 650s as a special edition of the 12c rather than sweep away the 12c altogether.
To be fair to the dealers, ultimately they are constrained by demand/supply and with the benefit of hindsight, I think it is fair to say Mclaren have considerably over-estimated demand for the P11 project and substantially over produced cars. Whether their business plans prevents doing so or the fixed costs are such they were not easily able to lower production numbers, dealerships were basically pretty oversupplied with cars waiting to be sold which obviously explains the low residuals and that clearly was not helped by the early bad press/technical problems. Edited by propaganda on Friday 21st February 11:55
For the 650S to have been released now and in this way, Mclaren will have done the numbers I reckon. Get a new model that rubs off some of the very positive reviews that the P1 is getting (as can be seen from the restyled front) and count on brand new buyers to start buying the car and effectively give up on existing owners to trade up as the residuals are down to the extent it will be difficult to rely on them trading up anyway. One just hopes for their own sake they have a much better gauge on matching production numbers of the 650S to actual customer orders otherwise the whole cycle will start again...
Edited by isaldiri on Friday 21st February 15:04
The problem for McLaren is that anyone with the smallest amount of intelligence can see that the 650s is just a tuned 12c not a new model. The only item that is beyond a 3rd party tuner to implement is the new headlight design, everything else could be by Vorsteiner et al. So in one fell swoop they antagonise the exiting customer base and will be unlikely to bring many new customers to this car, they will get some but it will be a trickle compared to the volume thay would have had with the P13. I suspect the 650s is probably a stop gap measure. There is an old adage in business that it is cheaper and easier to keep an existing customer than get a new one - McLaren do not seem to understand this or things are so desperate that they are ignoring this. They need to keep a strong customer base to keep a steady flow of both new buyers and people going into the used market thereby giving confidence to the brand as a whole. Ferrari are masters at this - control supply and thereby demand with the result that everybody wins.
Wanta996Gotta said:
UH-Matt said:
I'm someone who would have considered a 12C purchase in the next 12 months, but not anymore.
Too many stories from existing owners, total lack of support, and for me the 650s has now killed it off too soon. 650s could have been released as a facelift 12c rather than totally different model, just the same as other makers do.
Very disappointing.
What lack of support are you talking about? Too many stories from existing owners, total lack of support, and for me the 650s has now killed it off too soon. 650s could have been released as a facelift 12c rather than totally different model, just the same as other makers do.
Very disappointing.
Multiple people have now said its near impossible to get a bid from official dealers on a 12C!!
UH-Matt said:
Wanta996Gotta said:
UH-Matt said:
I'm someone who would have considered a 12C purchase in the next 12 months, but not anymore.
Too many stories from existing owners, total lack of support, and for me the 650s has now killed it off too soon. 650s could have been released as a facelift 12c rather than totally different model, just the same as other makers do.
Very disappointing.
What lack of support are you talking about? Too many stories from existing owners, total lack of support, and for me the 650s has now killed it off too soon. 650s could have been released as a facelift 12c rather than totally different model, just the same as other makers do.
Very disappointing.
Multiple people have now said its near impossible to get a bid from official dealers on a 12C!!
You actually think Porsche,Lamborghini and Ferrari dealers will pay you above list price for your car cause your bored??
Wanta996Gotta said:
UH-Matt said:
Wanta996Gotta said:
UH-Matt said:
I'm someone who would have considered a 12C purchase in the next 12 months, but not anymore.
Too many stories from existing owners, total lack of support, and for me the 650s has now killed it off too soon. 650s could have been released as a facelift 12c rather than totally different model, just the same as other makers do.
Very disappointing.
What lack of support are you talking about? Too many stories from existing owners, total lack of support, and for me the 650s has now killed it off too soon. 650s could have been released as a facelift 12c rather than totally different model, just the same as other makers do.
Very disappointing.
Multiple people have now said its near impossible to get a bid from official dealers on a 12C!!
You actually think Porsche,Lamborghini and Ferrari dealers will pay you above list price for your car cause your bored??
JPF40 said:
Wanta996Gotta said:
UH-Matt said:
Wanta996Gotta said:
UH-Matt said:
I'm someone who would have considered a 12C purchase in the next 12 months, but not anymore.
Too many stories from existing owners, total lack of support, and for me the 650s has now killed it off too soon. 650s could have been released as a facelift 12c rather than totally different model, just the same as other makers do.
Very disappointing.
What lack of support are you talking about? Too many stories from existing owners, total lack of support, and for me the 650s has now killed it off too soon. 650s could have been released as a facelift 12c rather than totally different model, just the same as other makers do.
Very disappointing.
Multiple people have now said its near impossible to get a bid from official dealers on a 12C!!
You actually think Porsche,Lamborghini and Ferrari dealers will pay you above list price for your car cause your bored??
Any Ferrari FF or California owners fancy there chances taking there cars back to there dealers looking for money back on there purchase??
Wanta996Gotta said:
Well DM me with your full spec and i will make you an offer. I find it hard to believe that any Mclaren dealer is knocking back stock and not bidding. Support to me is maintenance & servicing which i have heard is second to none compared to what some of these established dealers offer.
Any Ferrari FF or California owners fancy there chances taking there cars back to there dealers looking for money back on there purchase??
I sold a California and got a good price on it. I have bought a 12C recently and although I'm happy with the deal, I don't expect the dealer would be prepared to offer me anything other than a huge haircut on a 3 month old car. I didn't buy it to sell it and expect to keep it a while. In three years I still hope it will stand me ok. However, the 650 does not help any and if it too tanks (due to oversupply) then I think I am in for a bit of a bath. I do think McLaren are a very talented company, but they are a juvenile motor business and seem to not be learning from many obvious mistakes made by many motor companies over the years.Any Ferrari FF or California owners fancy there chances taking there cars back to there dealers looking for money back on there purchase??
Here's what I suspect; McLaren have been surprised by how quick sales have dried up for the 12C and this has concerned their investors, so the 650 has been developed to get things back on track BUT they will find that much harder than they expect. They are trying to build demand to the level they need for factory production. If it doesn't work, the factory has to build something. They say they don't want to oversupply but then they would never say otherwise.
I hope they do have it under control and I would like to stress, my views are only opinions, I have no inside knowledge (as many seem to claim with McLaren, which if someone from McLaren is reading this - not a great idea to have so many 'insiders', if they really exist).
LukeyLikey said:
I sold a California and got a good price on it. I have bought a 12C recently and although I'm happy with the deal, I don't expect the dealer would be prepared to offer me anything other than a huge haircut on a 3 month old car. I didn't buy it to sell it and expect to keep it a while. In three years I still hope it will stand me ok. However, the 650 does not help any and if it too tanks (due to oversupply) then I think I am in for a bit of a bath. I do think McLaren are a very talented company, but they are a juvenile motor business and seem to not be learning from many obvious mistakes made by many motor companies over the years.
Here's what I suspect; McLaren have been surprised by how quick sales have dried up for the 12C and this has concerned their investors, so the 650 has been developed to get things back on track BUT they will find that much harder than they expect. They are trying to build demand to the level they need for factory production. If it doesn't work, the factory has to build something. They say they don't want to oversupply but then they would never say otherwise.
I hope they do have it under control and I would like to stress, my views are only opinions, I have no inside knowledge (as many seem to claim with McLaren, which if someone from McLaren is reading this - not a great idea to have so many 'insiders', if they really exist).
This was one of my concerns with buying a used MP4 12C. Admittedly its a lot of car for the money ( circa £150k ) but if you only keep a short while which is what I tend to do I think the buying/selling premium along with depreciation is hugely disproportionate.Here's what I suspect; McLaren have been surprised by how quick sales have dried up for the 12C and this has concerned their investors, so the 650 has been developed to get things back on track BUT they will find that much harder than they expect. They are trying to build demand to the level they need for factory production. If it doesn't work, the factory has to build something. They say they don't want to oversupply but then they would never say otherwise.
I hope they do have it under control and I would like to stress, my views are only opinions, I have no inside knowledge (as many seem to claim with McLaren, which if someone from McLaren is reading this - not a great idea to have so many 'insiders', if they really exist).
458 prices still seem to be holding firm but cars are just sitting for months on end whilst I picked up a relative bargain with the LP570-4 Performante and spring is now approaching fast. Happy dayz
I had an early deposit down for 12C, but never could persuade myself to commit. At the beginning because of satnav, reliability etc, and then because of depreciation, which was evident early on. (I also had a test drive in one with a sports exhaust, and found the drone too much after minutes!).
From time to time, I still feel like I should buy one, but when it comes to the crunch I can't get over the line with a car which I don't imagine will be a keeper. (unlike SLS coupe which I will definitely keep long term)
I have a feeling that the 650S will be a much bigger step forward than people are expecting, with the potential to be a good way ahead of the competition if they have learned from P1 and gone out there to win the "junior supercar" argument conclusively. So, maybe I'll be back up for it, but the big question is whether the market perception of 650S is enough to get it out of the 12C depreciation curve. I am just not motivated to lose 60-70k in 12 months and not be able to sell.
From time to time, I still feel like I should buy one, but when it comes to the crunch I can't get over the line with a car which I don't imagine will be a keeper. (unlike SLS coupe which I will definitely keep long term)
I have a feeling that the 650S will be a much bigger step forward than people are expecting, with the potential to be a good way ahead of the competition if they have learned from P1 and gone out there to win the "junior supercar" argument conclusively. So, maybe I'll be back up for it, but the big question is whether the market perception of 650S is enough to get it out of the 12C depreciation curve. I am just not motivated to lose 60-70k in 12 months and not be able to sell.
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