EVs when the temperature drops.

[SWoll]

gangzoom said:

SWoll said:

9.5% battery used, 149 miles of range remaining so 165-170 mile range at 5 degrees C.

You must have the most efficient i3 ever made and by some margin! Even pre warmed and driven at a steady 56mph most people seem to not see anything better than 140 miles, and barely 100miles at 70mph

Either BMW has no quality control and hence two identical i3s can be so different, or either you or Bjron arent been 100% truthful with the variables.

https://youtu.be/afzfVaa513U

https://youtu.be/eNOGA_Ofb_U

The i3 demo I had for 24hrs was as bad if not worse than the Leaf in cold weather, but with added fun for RWD and skinny tyres .

Edited by gangzoom on Friday 15th November 11:00

Edited by gangzoom on Friday 15th November 11:27

Can only comment on my own findings this morning at 5 degrees C but as you can see from the screen 149 miles of range at 90.5% charge is reported after a 17 mile mixed driving round trip dropping my son at school.

ETA - Just had a look at those videos and he's driving an i3s rather than a standard i3 so not sure how much difference that makes. Also 1.5 Degrees C.

Edited by SWoll on Friday 15th November 12:11

[gangzoom]

SWoll said:

Can only comment on my own findings this morning at 5 degrees C but as you can see from the screen 149 miles of range at 90.5% charge is reported after a 17 mile mixed driving round trip dropping my son at school.

So if your mate wanted to borrow your i3 to drive from do Leicester to Cardiff (150 miles) and its fully charged, you'll tell them go for it and don't worry about range?

ABRP says 2 stops and 1hr of charging to do 150 miles or so, but your saying it'll be fine with no stops?

Because to someone who never had an EV been able to jump in and drive 150 miles down the M way is fine and probably will be enough to sell them on the idea of an EV, but 2 stops and 1hr charging is a different matter.

Which is it? Your data saying 150 miles in an i3 at 5 degrees is fine or everyone elses that says the no, you have to stop and maybe multiple times for a charge??

Edited by gangzoom on Friday 15th November 12:03

[SWoll]

gangzoom said:

SWoll said:

Can only comment on my own findings this morning at 5 degrees C but as you can see from the screen 149 miles of range at 90.5% charge is reported after a 17 mile mixed driving round trip dropping my son at school.

So if your mate wanted to borrow your i3 to drive from do Leicester to Cardiff (150 miles) and its fully charged, you'll tell them go for it and don't worry about range?

ABRP says 2 stops and 1hr of charging to do 150 miles or so, but your saying it'll be fine with no stops?

Because to someone who never had an EV been able to jump in and drive 150 miles down the M way is fine and probably will be enough to sell them on the idea of an EV, but 2 stops and 1hr charging is a different matter.

Which is it? Your data saying 150 miles in an i3 at 5 degrees is fine or everyone elses that says the no, you have to stop and maybe multiple times for a charge??

Edited by gangzoom on Friday 15th November 12:03

What on earth are you talking about?

I've given you evidence of the cars predicted range this morning at 5 degrees C after 17 miles of mixed driving. Take from that what you will but I'd suggest my usage this morning is far more representative of the majority of owners needs than doing 150 mile trips?

[M1C]

Another grumble from a Leaf 24kW owner here.

It's really not very good in the cold and wet. And we haven't even had proper 'cold' yet......

I knew this would be the case and it isn't worse that i expected....it's just.....a bit annoying / disappointing in practice.

I time my charging to finish just as i set off in the morning (usually is the case, give or take a few minutes, sometimes still going).

I only do 'granny' charging - this must still heat the battery a bit though as it charges up, albeit slowly?

So i shouldn't be getting into a car with a cold battery? Well, not cold as in...left overnight, kinda thing.

Hmm.

[manracer]

ive done some very rough tests and noticed that the consumption varies between say 7/8 degrees like it has been in the last 4 days here and last weekend when it 1 degree when i used it.

it seems to be OK at around 7 degrees, yet when cooler IE 2 or 3 degrees and below it really chews through the usage.

[MaxFromage]

SWoll said:

Did a quick check this morning. i3 120ah full charged overnight and warmed up this whilst still plugged in to keep battery full.

Covered a 17 mile round trip including traffic, city and A-Road driving at 70 mph with a few blasts of heating to keep the car warm and clear the moisture fogging off the windows. External temp was 5 degrees C.




9.5% battery used, 149 miles of range remaining so 165-170 mile range at 5 degrees C. Summer range without AC is about 190 miles so got to say I'm very impressed and still very useable.

I'm sure it'll drop dramatically if we get well below zero for a few days but will see how it goes.

ETA - And yes, it needs a bloody good dusting in there.

Edited by SWoll on Friday 15th November 10:15

That seems about what I get under those conditions as well. Though mine is usually just pre-heated cabin.Though I do think there's an extra 0.5% battery in there from fully charged as the first few % doesn't tally when you work battery % used, miles travelled and miles per kwh.

[Munter]

M1C said:

Another grumble from a Leaf 24kW owner here.

It's really not very good in the cold and wet. And we haven't even had proper 'cold' yet......

I knew this would be the case and it isn't worse that i expected....it's just.....a bit annoying / disappointing in practice.

I time my charging to finish just as i set off in the morning (usually is the case, give or take a few minutes, sometimes still going).

I only do 'granny' charging - this must still heat the battery a bit though as it charges up, albeit slowly?

So i shouldn't be getting into a car with a cold battery? Well, not cold as in...left overnight, kinda thing.

Hmm.

Just do what special forces do to stop diesel freezing. Light a fire under the vehicle. That'll warm up the battery and bobs your uncle.

[gangzoom]

SWoll said:

What on earth are you talking about?

I've given you evidence of the cars predicted range this morning at 5 degrees C after 17 miles of mixed driving. Take from that what you will but I'd suggest my usage this morning is far more representative of the majority of owners needs than doing 150 mile trips?

You know exactly what am talking about, its about time EV owners stop pretending the rated range displayed by any of the cars have relation to actual real life use in winter.

Very simple question, do you 100% believe your i3 on 100% charge will drive from Leicester to Cardiff, a distance of 150 miles non stop without charging right now? Because that's what your car is telling you right? But you've owned it long enough to give a proper answer and not hide behind fake numbers. Yes or no, very simple question?

The inability of EV owners (and manufactures) to admit in cold climates EVs simply don't have any where near their rated or advertised range is NOT good for EV take up. Most people don't waste time on car forums, they see a car they like, read specs and if the numbers work buy it.

How do you think your friend/mother/father who ever going to get on if they get into your i3 showing 150 miles of charge on 100% and set off on a longish trip to see family this weekend 150 miles away without a worry at all about range, because guess what, the car says it'll do 150 miles so surely it must be able to do it?? And how many people are they going to tell about how useless EVs are when they run out of charge 10-20-30 miles away from their destination??

EVs are great, but not admitting their flaws is just been stubborn for no real benefit to anyone.

Edited by gangzoom on Friday 15th November 16:56

[SWoll]

GZ, you seem to be quite angry about this, which I'm finding very amusing.

I've made no claims about anyone else's usage or that once temperature's really plummet the same won't happen to the range. Just offering a real world counterpoint to the "I've already lost 50% of my range in November" posts I've seen.

If my earlier post annoyed you then you'll love this. Drove to pickup my lad earlier and without any preheating this was the result.



5% additional battery used over an 8.5 mile trip yet only lost 1 mile of predicted range. Floored the accelerator at least twice during that trip BTW as joining a 70mph A-Road from slow speeds.



As mentioned above 99% of owners aren't doing 150 mile trips so a fairly pointless example to keep banging on about. In normal daily usage the cold has far less affect on range than is being suggested is my point.

Edited by SWoll on Friday 15th November 17:18

Edited by SWoll on Friday 15th November 17:19

[Willow1212]

gangzoom said:

You know exactly what am talking about, its about time EV owners stop pretending the rated range displayed by any of the cars have relation to actual real life use in winter.

Actually in my experience the predicted range is extremely accurate, when I turn it on, if it is 3degC it isn't going to give me a summer range figure. But the range prediction is based on driving history, so I know that if I've been using the car for commuting at A and B-road speeds, then if I then want to drive from Leicester to Cardiff then the efficiency will likely go down. And the range in the car updates constantly. If I turn on/off the aircon the range updates accordingly. And if I'm using the satnav to take me somewhere, and the available range drops below the distance to the destination, it will tell me. Of course it is a little different to burning fuels, but there's plenty of intelligence built-in to help.

This isn't unique to BEVs, it would be the same if my wife was taking her petrol car to do the same journey. That also predicts a range based on how much petrol in the tank (in my experience, a lot less accurately), and if you want to belt up the motorway you will get less range. So if it says 150 miles range, you would plan a top-up somewhere if you are doing a 150 mile journey, of course you would. It is no different and I think most people can work that out.

My phone tells me the battery is going to run out at 02.10 Sunday morning because I've hardly looked at it today. But if I start watching box sets of Game of Thrones on it this evening, then that will change. It is just batteries. Most of us get how they work and that you need to allow a bit of a buffer.

[anonymous-user]

Willow1212 said:

gangzoom said:

You know exactly what am talking about, its about time EV owners stop pretending the rated range displayed by any of the cars have relation to actual real life use in winter.

Actually in my experience the predicted range is extremely accurate, when I turn it on, if it is 3degC it isn't going to give me a summer range figure. But the range prediction is based on driving history, so I know that if I've been using the car for commuting at A and B-road speeds, then if I then want to drive from Leicester to Cardiff then the efficiency will likely go down. And the range in the car updates constantly. If I turn on/off the aircon the range updates accordingly. And if I'm using the satnav to take me somewhere, and the available range drops below the distance to the destination, it will tell me. Of course it is a little different to burning fuels, but there's plenty of intelligence built-in to help.

This isn't unique to BEVs, it would be the same if my wife was taking her petrol car to do the same journey. That also predicts a range based on how much petrol in the tank (in my experience, a lot less accurately), and if you want to belt up the motorway you will get less range. So if it says 150 miles range, you would plan a top-up somewhere if you are doing a 150 mile journey, of course you would. It is no different and I think most people can work that out.

My phone tells me the battery is going to run out at 02.10 Sunday morning because I've hardly looked at it today. But if I start watching box sets of Game of Thrones on it this evening, then that will change. It is just batteries. Most of us get how they work and that you need to allow a bit of a buffer.

You’re right. Except that, at this early stage, there is resistance and concern about the reliability of, and the time needed for recharging.

It’s getting better but it’s still there.

Edited to add, no need for the predictable “A Tesla charges at the speed of light (which I know it, arguably, does but all EVs do that ) and the supercharger network is awesome” st. Thank you.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 15th November 17:55

[gangzoom]

Willow1212 said:

This isn't unique to BEVs, it would be the same if my wife was taking her petrol car to do the same journey. That also predicts a range based on how much petrol in the tank (in my experience, a lot less accurately), and if you want to belt up the motorway you will get less range.

The point people miss is in an EV come winter the range loss is disproportionately worse than in a combustion car, simply because in a combustion car the waste energy of combustion - heat, comes in very handy, therefore you don't 'lose' any additional energy for heating. In an EV because you have to spend extra energy heating, the drop in range is worse.

M-way speeds is a whole separate issue.

[gangzoom]

SWoll said:

GZ, you seem to be quite angry about this, which I'm finding very amusing.

It not anger, just bemusement why some EV owners seem to be in denial about inherent limitation of the tech. If you want to believe your i3 will do 148 miles of on 85% SOC good for you!

The longer I own an EV the more am sure mass adoption is not happening any time soon, which is great for owners, because government is unlikely to try and extract extra taxation from EV owners any time soon .

[SWoll]

gangzoom said:

SWoll said:

GZ, you seem to be quite angry about this, which I'm finding very amusing.

It not anger, just bemusement why some EV owners seem to be in denial about inherent limitation of the tech. If you want to believe your i3 will do 148 miles of on 85% SOC good for you!

The longer I own an EV the more am sure mass adoption is not happening any time soon, which is great for owners, because government is unlikely to try and extract extra taxation from EV owners any time soon .

But it will do 148 miles if I keep using it the way I have done today and the temperature doesn't drop significantly? In the same way that it has always done 170+ miles in the summer with a similar usage pattern?

What bemuses me is why you keep talking about Leicester to Cardiff. I don't do those kind of trips regularly, as will be the case for 99% of drivers, so pointing out that at a constant 70mph with no regen it won't do the mileage it's currently predicting isn't relevant.

It is of course a limitation for some but I don't think placing so much focus on it when it affects such a small group of prospective users is helpful. Average UK commute is < 10 miles and average monthly mileage is < 650.

[granada203028]

M1C said:

Another grumble from a Leaf 24kW owner here.

It's really not very good in the cold and wet. And we haven't even had proper 'cold' yet......

I knew this would be the case and it isn't worse that i expected....it's just.....a bit annoying / disappointing in practice.

I time my charging to finish just as i set off in the morning (usually is the case, give or take a few minutes, sometimes still going).

I only do 'granny' charging - this must still heat the battery a bit though as it charges up, albeit slowly?

So i shouldn't be getting into a car with a cold battery? Well, not cold as in...left overnight, kinda thing.

Hmm.

Yes mine has been pretty rubbish this week. 11/12 charged at work, 20 miles later only 3/12 left and I turn the heater off. Newport J24 to Stoke Gifford north Bristol.

The poor heater control is part of the problem, gobbling 2.5 - 3KW to heat the cabin to 16.5 deg C. Set 16 it goes off and cold. Stupid climate control no manual mode. I'd like to set say 1KW just to take the chill of and stop the screen misting. If that's 10 deg C then fine, snuggly enough in my jumper.

[Olivera]

granada203028 said:

Yes mine has been pretty rubbish this week. 11/12 charged at work, 20 miles later only 3/12 left and I turn the heater off. Newport J24 to Stoke Gifford north Bristol.

The poor heater control is part of the problem, gobbling 2.5 - 3KW to heat the cabin to 16.5 deg C. Set 16 it goes off and cold. Stupid climate control no manual mode. I'd like to set say 1KW just to take the chill of and stop the screen misting. If that's 10 deg C then fine, snuggly enough in my jumper.

Laughably bad. Scraping 20 miles range in the winter and considering turning the heater either off or down to 10 deg C.

[jamoor]

granada203028 said:

Yes mine has been pretty rubbish this week. 11/12 charged at work, 20 miles later only 3/12 left and I turn the heater off. Newport J24 to Stoke Gifford north Bristol.

The poor heater control is part of the problem, gobbling 2.5 - 3KW to heat the cabin to 16.5 deg C. Set 16 it goes off and cold. Stupid climate control no manual mode. I'd like to set say 1KW just to take the chill of and stop the screen misting. If that's 10 deg C then fine, snuggly enough in my jumper.

Can't you heat the cabin while its charging?

[Pooh]

I am not sure that ancient Nissan Leafs with tiny batteries are really a fair way to asses modern electric cars.
This is a readout of a journey I described in a previous post, I had the lights on for around 25% of the journey, the heating and aircon on the whole time, the temperature was hovering around zero, it was windy and the trip involved going over the hills on the B974 with a maximum altitude of 1493 feet.
In the summer I would probably have achieved around 4mpkwh for the same trip which gives a range of 160 miles so the cold/dark has had an effect on the range but nothing like as bad as some people seem to be suffering.




I took the above photo just short of the highest point, it was -1 and windy so it was a very quick trip out of the car.

Edited by Pooh on Saturday 16th November 11:08

[MaxFromage]

gangzoom said:

It not anger, just bemusement why some EV owners seem to be in denial about inherent limitation of the tech. If you want to believe your i3 will do 148 miles of on 85% SOC good for you!

There's no need to 'believe' when it's reality. There's nowt queer as folk

[squirdan]

M3P this mornings commute...

Heating and radio on



I make no comment other than thats real life usage . Note the predicted range on nearly 90pc charge...