So, EV performance cars are coming soon, right?
Discussion
There aren’t yet any cars of the sort I like to own as toys which are powered by electricity. I don’t think that’s because it can’t be done, and there are precious few powered by petrol. I think it’s just market forces coupled with what’s easy to do electrically. People buy SUVs. You can cram a lot of batteries in one, and charge a lot of money for it.
a BMW i3s is about 1,200 kg , with has 190 bhp and 270Nm and has 4 seats and 4 doors
a current MX5 is 1060 kg, with 181 bhp and 205 Nm and has two seats and two doors
Yes, the i3 uses a rather more exotic construction, but i think a BEV MX-5 isn't that unfeasible with pretty decent mass and performance
a current MX5 is 1060 kg, with 181 bhp and 205 Nm and has two seats and two doors
Yes, the i3 uses a rather more exotic construction, but i think a BEV MX-5 isn't that unfeasible with pretty decent mass and performance
Max_Torque said:
a BMW i3s is about 1,200 kg , with has 190 bhp and 270Nm and has 4 seats and 4 doors
a current MX5 is 1060 kg, with 181 bhp and 205 Nm and has two seats and two doors
Yes, the i3 uses a rather more exotic construction, but i think a BEV MX-5 isn't that unfeasible with pretty decent mass and performance
I think it definitely is doable. At worse it would require sacrificing some range to keep the weight reasonable. There's no particular reason why power output of the motors need to be limited by a reduced battery pack though.. Wouldn't want to go crazy with power, but I guess 250hp and 400nm torque would more than make up for a slight weigh gain over the current ICE.a current MX5 is 1060 kg, with 181 bhp and 205 Nm and has two seats and two doors
Yes, the i3 uses a rather more exotic construction, but i think a BEV MX-5 isn't that unfeasible with pretty decent mass and performance
I think it should be ok to sacrifice range for what is obviously a fun car with limited practicality to start with..? It would help if the entire motoring press and all non EV drivers weren't obsessed with range..
I'd guess 200+ miles of range and 200+ bhp would be the minimum requirements for a marketable sportscar in 2022?
If Tesla can build a 4 seat saloon with a 60kW battery that weighs around 1600KG then it can't be beyond the whit of man to build a 1400KG, 50kW, 250bhp 2 seater surely? Battery packaging becomes less of an issue so should be able to set it up with perfect balance as well.
What was the original 986 Boxster S, around 1350Kg and 250bhp?
If Tesla can build a 4 seat saloon with a 60kW battery that weighs around 1600KG then it can't be beyond the whit of man to build a 1400KG, 50kW, 250bhp 2 seater surely? Battery packaging becomes less of an issue so should be able to set it up with perfect balance as well.
What was the original 986 Boxster S, around 1350Kg and 250bhp?
Edited by SWoll on Tuesday 1st February 23:34
It’s a pity BMW isn’t taking the i3 platform and creating something lower and sportier from it. Much like the i3 is unique in many ways, they could possibly create something akin to an MX-5. The i3 is the only EV that I have driven that I would call engaging in an old school sort of way. It’s not lumbered with artificial chassis tech, it drives well because it’s light, it’s not hard to hit the tyre limits, and it even has decent steering feel. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone will build something sporty based on them. Massively lowered, wider track and wheels. It would also need a sensation of sitting in the car and not on top of it but can maybe be done with a lower seating position and sacrifice some rear seat space.
Max_Torque said:
a BMW i3s is about 1,200 kg , with has 190 bhp and 270Nm and has 4 seats and 4 doors
a current MX5 is 1060 kg, with 181 bhp and 205 Nm and has two seats and two doors
Yes, the i3 uses a rather more exotic construction, but i think a BEV MX-5 isn't that unfeasible with pretty decent mass and performance
The i3 has a body-on-frame construction (so in a way super advanced with its CFRP but also super old-fashioned with its body-on-frame...) so in theory it could be possible to use the i3 base to make a smaller, lower sportier car. That's what I wished BMW would've done. Problem is the joining of the "LifeDrive" (LOL) skateboard frame to its body is a bit complex so it probably is way off feasible for anyone other than BMW itself to do such a thing as you'd have to design such a specific, complex body for it. a current MX5 is 1060 kg, with 181 bhp and 205 Nm and has two seats and two doors
Yes, the i3 uses a rather more exotic construction, but i think a BEV MX-5 isn't that unfeasible with pretty decent mass and performance
And once you make the body out of something other than carbon (not feasible for anyone but BMW in their mass production) the weight will go up significantly. Plus you probably won't get the driving position very low, at least not in any way comparable to MX-5 (though COG will be ok), and who knows if it's possible to get anything good done with the suspension since the i3 is pretty poor in the suspension department when push comes to shove... Then it's not a given that it's possible to add a limited slip differential to the i3. And it would need a completely new steering rack. It adds up...
SWoll said:
What was the original 986 Boxster S, around 1350Kg and 250bhp?
Yup, and it was a real sweet spot! Vastly underrated car and it was such a nice car to drive. Powerful enough to have fun, light enough to feel nimble and an overall well packaged car. I recommend anyone who hasnt, they really should drive one! And it really shows that you dont need more to have fun - and if someone can crack this with an EV (surely Porsche has the most experience to do this and are actively working on this now for the 2024 model), it could well be a game changer for many.A great example of how the drivetrain could become irrelevant - though one of the big draws for many on the Boxster was that howl when you get over 4500 RPM. Lets see how this pans out though, but I am certainly interested!
annodomini2 said:
SWoll said:
...
If Tesla can build a 4 seat saloon with a 60kW battery that weighs around 1600KG ...
Model 3:If Tesla can build a 4 seat saloon with a 60kW battery that weighs around 1600KG ...
SR - 50kwh - 1611kg
SR+ - 52kwh - 1684kg
SR+ LFP - 52.5kwh - 1825kg
LFP - 57.5kwh - 1835kg
1200KG and 190bhp my arse, and he's been pulled up on it previously. Mine was at least an honest mistake.
DMZ said:
It’s a pity BMW isn’t taking the i3 platform and creating something lower and sportier from it. Much like the i3 is unique in many ways, they could possibly create something akin to an MX-5. The i3 is the only EV that I have driven that I would call engaging in an old school sort of way. It’s not lumbered with artificial chassis tech, it drives well because it’s light, it’s not hard to hit the tyre limits, and it even has decent steering feel. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone will build something sporty based on them. Massively lowered, wider track and wheels. It would also need a sensation of sitting in the car and not on top of it but can maybe be done with a lower seating position and sacrifice some rear seat space.
I agree, but given how many OEM's operate, it could be a big challenge to actually do. I know things have changed now, but it used to be that OEM's had a budget for a new model and engineered to that - with an expectation of a certain number of models sold. Once they reach a certain number, any built above that is seen as profit and success. Sell under that, its a failure and product plans change.Of course, as the car market has ended up a niche of a niche of a nice, this clearly isnt used as a business model. But you can see how some of this works. A model / range has a certain expectation of volume and customers expect a certain price. If those two dont meet somewhere, the product isnt justifiable. Even Mazda struggled for a number of years with the MX-5 - sold in good numbers, but the costs involved just didnt justify some of the revisions they needed to make. The most successful small roadster in the world and even Mazda couldnt make the numbers work.
BMW thought that the i3 could crack a new market for them, and to a degree it did. But this was at a price. Can an OEM build something that is light, effective and fun? Absolutely - no doubt BMW could do it, as could a bunch of others. But does it sell? If the audience is 1000 people worldwide, price it accordingly and go for exclusivity. Thats where we are at the moment though, the interesting stuff for EV's is still at the high-end - $3m or what ever it is for the super exclusive stuff. Rarity, exclusivity and bespoke options. Plenty of people with money who are prepared to drop it on these things. $30k small and effective fun to drive sports car? Not really a market for an EV at the moment. Hell, even BMW and Mercedes struggle to sell a $70k ICE roadster, and thats with parts & drivetrains from very popular models!
ZesPak said:
Terminator X said:
Nonsense, comparable cars are RS3's etc all at 1500-1550kg.
The Model S is 2100kg and it is comparable to a RS4 or a M4 which is 1700-1800kg.
TX.
You're off by a full class there TX.The Model S is 2100kg and it is comparable to a RS4 or a M4 which is 1700-1800kg.
TX.
The Model 3 is 3-series, the Model S is E-class/5-series.
An A4 is tiny inside and out compared to a Model S.
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