Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
sjg said:
Is there data anywhere on how many hydrogen cars are out there so far?
SMMT don’t seem to track it for sales.
Howmanyleft has 150 Mirais, 23 Nexo, and nothing matching Riversimple or Rasa.
That's because the Rasa is just a money making exercise until people stop investing, 10 years and not a car on the road. yet somehow people still throw grants (tax payers money) their way... hmm.SMMT don’t seem to track it for sales.
Howmanyleft has 150 Mirais, 23 Nexo, and nothing matching Riversimple or Rasa.
sjg said:
Is there data anywhere on how many hydrogen cars are out there so far?
SMMT don’t seem to track it for sales.
Howmanyleft has 150 Mirais, 23 Nexo, and nothing matching Riversimple or Rasa.
Speaking of Riversimple.SMMT don’t seem to track it for sales.
Howmanyleft has 150 Mirais, 23 Nexo, and nothing matching Riversimple or Rasa.
https://www.h2-view.com/story/riversimple-rethinki...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Nice link but doesn't answer the question. It's just a piece of marketing fluff.As for sales figures - https://carsalesbase.com/europe-toyota-mirai/
https://carsalesbase.com/us-toyota-mirai/ - US sales of around 1,500 year.
Tesla Model 3 sales - https://carsalesbase.com/us-tesla-model-3/ - 160,000 last year.
The Model X outsells the Mirai by a factor of 10 in the US too.
Riversimple are the most hated company in Wales. The amount of Welsh Government money they've wasted on a 2-seat concept car is disgusting. I hope someone's head rolls for it.
Toyota UK's Mirai advertising department don't even acknowledge that there are 2 hydrogen fueling stations in Wales
Toyota UK's Mirai advertising department don't even acknowledge that there are 2 hydrogen fueling stations in Wales
GT119 said:
VK, I know you have a soft spot for Riversimple, and a lot of your earlier claims about hydrogen have mimicked those above.
Maybe you are connected to them somehow.
My thoughts don't mimic theirs. They are similar.Maybe you are connected to them somehow.
I have no connection with Riversimple but I am interested in what their project is doing.
For my work pattern a two seater would actually be ideal as I spend most of my time on my own. I do have to carry some items but nothing a compact car couldn't take.
Some on here have said that maybe the whole way we approach motoring might have to change to really have an ecological or environmental impact. These people seem to be going that step further than just taking the car model and converting the powerplant to electric.
They're pushing the weight/resistance/drag thing more than the average car and also considering how the car will be sold/leased/owned/maintained/supported.
Whether this will end up as development for something or someone else or whether they'll get it over the line as their own thing is a question.
They realise the chicken and egg thing and I reckon they feel they haven't the impact to get this rolling nationally before bigger players do, hence why they appear to be aiming at a locally focussed rollout that can be supported and managed to then grow in a different way.
I feel they'll only get great interest from people who really care about our environment and ecological living. I don't think they can rely on those that want the latest fashion accessory or the newest, shiniest toy.
I wonder if they'd be better having a two pronged approach. One being the little RASA for the eco-warriors, and another, in collaboration with someone like a Ginetta or a Morgan or a Gumpert or a McLaren, to produce a real halo supercar with the big ticket price that appeals to a market that aren't really constrained like normal people by the small size of the hydrogen fuelling network here, but something that would have international reach.
Then again the Japanese like their Kei cars and their quirky little numbers. Whether the Rasa is more suited to Tokyo than here!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
If you want to be ecological, minimum footprint, and entirely impractical... Get an electric motorcycle.Aside from the Smart car which was a true city car, there's been no big-selling 2-seaters that didn't claim to be sporty.
Every other car that has tried to be an impractical 2-seater for the reason on efficiency has fallen flat on its face.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
They have a lot of time and money invested in hydrogen, so it's not surprising that they are trying to big it up.Their efficiency argument is based on three main criteria; low weight, low Cd/frontal area and low rolling resistance.
They are claiming a crossover point at 150 miles range above which the well-to-wheel efficiency is higher for hydrogen.
This is primarily driven by the low weight argument. That 150 mile crossover point may have been the case in the past, but the passage of time will have been pushing the crossover point up and up, and there is nothing they can do about it. The weight and stage efficiencies for the hydrogen approach are to all intents and purposes fixed. Conversely, battery energy density keeps increasing.
Playing devil's advocate, I'd suggest they should really be developing an all-electric Rasa with a state-of-the-art battery and offering both battery and hydrogen versions for their mobility business plan. I have a sneaking suspicion that the BEV version would be by far the biggest seller. The sustainability of the hydrogen-only approach would concern me if I was a stakeholder.
Re-engineering the vehicle for this option will need a decent amount of time and money, so rather than just raising more and more money to keep fund the considerable overheads, it would need bold decision makers to change the mix of personnel and diversify.
Maybe two electric options would make sense to keep development to a minimum.
Option 1, a 150 miles range version with a single battery, replacing the fuel cell/ tank, etc, and removing the super capacitor.
Option 2, as above but add a second battery in place of the super capacitor to double the range.
GT119 said:
They have a lot of time and money invested in hydrogen, so it's not surprising that they are trying to big it up.
Their efficiency argument is based on three main criteria; low weight, low Cd/frontal area and low rolling resistance.
They are claiming a crossover point at 150 miles range above which the well-to-wheel efficiency is higher for hydrogen.
This is primarily driven by the low weight argument. That 150 mile crossover point may have been the case in the past, but the passage of time will have been pushing the crossover point up and up, and there is nothing they can do about it. The weight and stage efficiencies for the hydrogen approach are to all intents and purposes fixed. Conversely, battery energy density keeps increasing.
Playing devil's advocate, I'd suggest they should really be developing an all-electric Rasa with a state-of-the-art battery and offering both battery and hydrogen versions for their mobility business plan. I have a sneaking suspicion that the BEV version would be by far the biggest seller. The sustainability of the hydrogen-only approach would concern me if I was a stakeholder.
Re-engineering the vehicle for this option will need a decent amount of time and money, so rather than just raising more and more money to keep fund the considerable overheads, it would need bold decision makers to change the mix of personnel and diversify.
Maybe two electric options would make sense to keep development to a minimum.
Option 1, a 150 miles range version with a single battery, replacing the fuel cell/ tank, etc, and removing the super capacitor.
Option 2, as above but add a second battery in place of the super capacitor to double the range.
I believe that battery energy densities won't reduce that much in time and that the increase in density will be logarithmic. That'll be largely a result of physical/chemical/electrical constraints but also by commercial constraints. The commercial constraints being cost of the materials, return on development costs and through managing the release of improvements so as not to pTheir efficiency argument is based on three main criteria; low weight, low Cd/frontal area and low rolling resistance.
They are claiming a crossover point at 150 miles range above which the well-to-wheel efficiency is higher for hydrogen.
This is primarily driven by the low weight argument. That 150 mile crossover point may have been the case in the past, but the passage of time will have been pushing the crossover point up and up, and there is nothing they can do about it. The weight and stage efficiencies for the hydrogen approach are to all intents and purposes fixed. Conversely, battery energy density keeps increasing.
Playing devil's advocate, I'd suggest they should really be developing an all-electric Rasa with a state-of-the-art battery and offering both battery and hydrogen versions for their mobility business plan. I have a sneaking suspicion that the BEV version would be by far the biggest seller. The sustainability of the hydrogen-only approach would concern me if I was a stakeholder.
Re-engineering the vehicle for this option will need a decent amount of time and money, so rather than just raising more and more money to keep fund the considerable overheads, it would need bold decision makers to change the mix of personnel and diversify.
Maybe two electric options would make sense to keep development to a minimum.
Option 1, a 150 miles range version with a single battery, replacing the fuel cell/ tank, etc, and removing the super capacitor.
Option 2, as above but add a second battery in place of the super capacitor to double the range.
s off existing car owners too much!The law of diminishing returns applies to batteries both ways. Want more range? Whack on more batteries. But beyond a point that adds so much weight that the weight additional batteries eat away at the extra range they're there to give.
So want to cut weight? Remove some batteries. But that has an effect on range!
Toyota have managed to up the output of their Mirai fuel cell while reducing the fuel cell weight and size. Obviously they've not reduced the weight of the car, instead choosing to make a larger car. The key thing is that once they choose to engineer the chassis to reduce weight further then they can start to improve the overall vehicle efficiency.
In my opinion the Riversimple guys are trying to see how much can be squeezed out of as little as possible.
Figures I've seen suggest that the Rasa can get 300 miles out of approx 50kWh of hydrogen in the tank.
So 6 miles per kWh.
Looking at the nearest 2 seater BEV? The Smart 2 seater? 58 miles max range from 17.6kWh.
So 3.3 miles per kWh.
What would you have to do to the BEV Smart 2 seater to get a more practical range out of it?
Why haven't they?
Evanivitch said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
If you want to be ecological, minimum footprint, and entirely impractical... Get an electric motorcycle.Aside from the Smart car which was a true city car, there's been no big-selling 2-seaters that didn't claim to be sporty.
Every other car that has tried to be an impractical 2-seater for the reason on efficiency has fallen flat on its face.
I don't think it's appropriate to bring motorcycles into the equation! After all, where would you stop saying 'don't buy one of these, just buy a motorcycle'?
Don't buy a Tesla, just get a motorbike! You get my point? Something like a Rasa can do what I need a car for. A motorbike just can't.
That's on the caveat that we would still need a second car for the wife, with room for 4, for family stuff. But looking at 100% of my business miles? I never need more than 2 seats for that! But I do need to be under a roof and behind glass.
Regarding the rest of your post, I'm sorry I don't really understand what you're point is? Maybe you can elaborate?
Evanivitch said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Weight doesn't affect the range of EVs in any significant ways due to regenerative braking.Mass itself has a direct effect on the effectiveness of regenerative braking.
Heavier cars seem to benefit more from regen, lighter vehicles don't seem to get much benefit from it. Law of diminishing returns again.........
Motorway driving doesn't provide for optimum regen either.
And regen is available in both types of EV, BEV and FCEV.
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