Tesla Model 3 revealed

[lostkiwi]

98elise said:

kambites said:

98elise said:

No its a 3 phase induction motor IIRC.

As far as I know there are no permanent magnets in a Tesla's drive-train which of course is not true for an ICE powered car which typically has them in the starter motor.

I didn't think of that! I've always assumed they were equal, but in fact an ICE needs more

No it doesn't. The starter motor uses field windings on the outside and an armature with multiple windings so no magnets. An alternator is similar - no magnets.
The only place you're likely to find magnets is on small low power motors such as fuel pumps, washer pumps, window motors and wiper motors. The only difference in motors between an EV and an ICE is therefore likely to be fuel pumps, but then if an EV has a coolant pump at all then it balances out again.

[98elise]

deaglecat said:

£1k to pre-order a model 3. Refundable (unless they go belly-up).

Anyone ?

Me....and 160000 other people it would seem

[kambites]

carl_w said:

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk suggests that the difference between peak and offpeak demand is about 10GW at the moment.

So 10GW over, say, eight hours a day is 80GWh per day; around 30TWh per year. Say three miles per kwh so that's enough capacity for 90 billion miles per year; the (mean) average car in the UK does 8000 miles a year so we could easily run 11 million average mileage EVs without increasing out average daily maximum power draw (considerably more before we actually started to hit grid capacity limits).

I don't think anyone believes we're going to have more than 11 million pure EVs in the UK in the near future.

[kambites]

lostkiwi said:

No it doesn't. The starter motor uses field windings on the outside and an armature with multiple windings so no magnets. An alternator is similar - no magnets.
The only place you're likely to find magnets is on small low power motors such as fuel pumps, washer pumps, window motors and wiper motors. The only difference in motors between an EV and an ICE is therefore likely to be fuel pumps, but then if an EV has a coolant pump at all then it balances out again.

Fair enough. Neither has enough for it to be a problem anyway.

[carl_w]

kambites said:

So 10GW over, say, eight hours a day is 80GWh per day; around 30TWh per year. Say three miles per kwh so that's enough capacity for 90 billion miles per year; the (mean) average car in the UK does 8000 miles a year so we could easily run 11 million average mileage EVs without increasing out average daily maximum power draw (considerably more before we actually started to hit grid capacity limits).

I don't think anyone believes we're going to have more than 11 million pure EVs in the UK in the near future.

Yes but will mean the price of electricity goes up as the CCGT power stations are only spun up when the spot price is high enough. If demand is going to be flatter due to overnight charging what we really need is some new nuclear power stations.

[kambites]

carl_w said:

es but will mean the price of electricity goes up as the CCGT power stations are only spun up when the spot price is high enough. If demand is going to be flatter due to overnight charging what we really need is some new nuclear power stations.

That seems to be the current plan; whether it'll ever happen is of course another matter.

[Mr Will]

George111 said:

OK, I still can't recharge it where I work and if I live in an apartment in London I still can't recharge it at home. So it's still a dead duck with an even further reduced range from the previous Tesla cars. Surely with reduced performance you'd expect increased range . . . ?

Until you can recharge these cars at a couple of places in every town/village they're not going to catch on.

I could recharge one literally 6ft from my front door. I could also recharge it at work (Tesla Superchargers already in the carpark). The places that I visit that are both A) more than 100 miles away and B) would not allow me to do an overnight charge are virtually none-existent.

I'm not trying to claim that it is suitable for everyone, but central London apartment dwellers are only a small part of the population, and an even smaller percentage of the people who'd be looking to spend 35k on a car. This is a practical option for a significant number of people.

[George111]

kambites said:

George111 said:

By how much ? Is it very different ?

It's not easy to calculate because there are so many variables. I did try to come up with a "best guess" a while ago but I can't really remember the results. I think using a hydrogen fuel cell to power a car required at least twice as much electricity as using Lithium Ion batteries.

But that's OK because it'll all come from tidal/wind and solar

At last with Hydrogen we have a chance of getting every motorist converted but EV cars are only ever going to appeal to a very small minority and the cities where we need it most will have the least EV cars due to the nature of housing. We can also reuse the existing fuel filling stations so transition is easy.

I can't help think that if Elon Musk had invested in Hydrogen- perhaps reusing the work BMW had done in the 80s and 90s - we'd be much further along that road now.

[-crookedtail-]

Very interesting car this, will be a big hit no doubt.

Question for anyone smarter than me. Do EV vehicles suffer 'economy' drop in traffic? For example on good friday it took me 4.5hrs to drive 130 miles, in an EV would it be using up its reserves at an alarming rate in traffic or is it not too bad? Running out of juice on a standstill M4 wouldn't be fun.

[otolith]

George111 said:

But that's OK because it'll all come from tidal/wind and solar

At last with Hydrogen we have a chance of getting every motorist converted but EV cars are only ever going to appeal to a very small minority and the cities where we need it most will have the least EV cars due to the nature of housing. We can also reuse the existing fuel filling stations so transition is easy.

I can't help think that if Elon Musk had invested in Hydrogen- perhaps reusing the work BMW had done in the 80s and 90s - we'd be much further along that road now.

Hydrogen is a terrible solution. It's significantly less energy efficient than batteries if you use it in a fuel cell and appallingly so if (as BMW long ago suggested) you burn it in an engine. It's expensive and inconvenient and energy consuming to transport and store. The sole advantage it has is faster recharging time.

[HB2K]

dlockhart said:

HB2K said:

Try a Costco. Both my locals (Hayes and Sunbury) have rows of EV charging points. I've never seen anyone using them, mind, but I guess that will change over the next 10 years or so.

Surbiton waitrose has ev charging - your waitrose obviously isn't middleclass enough

Actually it does - I had forgotten because they are shoved round the back and the staff are already parked in them! Having visited Surbiton Waitrose, I think if anything mine (not far away in Hampton) is probably more middle class!

I don't know how you would define Costco though. I'd say most of its customers probably weren't born locally, but that would include me as well.

[Mr Will]

George111 said:

Hydrogen gets rid of many of the drawbacks of battery cars - slow refill and limited range. Still not perfect but that's the future.

Hydrogen adds the drawbacks of petrol cars though - having to visit a filling station to refuel, transporting it around the country/world to get it to the filling stations. It only seems more practical because it is closer to what we are used to.

[George111]

Mr Will said:

George111 said:

OK, I still can't recharge it where I work and if I live in an apartment in London I still can't recharge it at home. So it's still a dead duck with an even further reduced range from the previous Tesla cars. Surely with reduced performance you'd expect increased range . . . ?

Until you can recharge these cars at a couple of places in every town/village they're not going to catch on.

I could recharge one literally 6ft from my front door. I could also recharge it at work (Tesla Superchargers already in the carpark). The places that I visit that are both A) more than 100 miles away and B) would not allow me to do an overnight charge are virtually none-existent.

I'm not trying to claim that it is suitable for everyone, but central London apartment dwellers are only a small part of the population, and an even smaller percentage of the people who'd be looking to spend 35k on a car. This is a practical option for a significant number of people.

No it's not. The majority of car users in the UK do not have a drive, they park on the road and they can't charge a car on the road or have a drive/car parking area which is not directly next to the house. Electric charging is not feasible for the majority of people with the current technology, it doesn't work. Who wants to route their journey by supercharger charging points ? Nobody.

It does work for the few who can arrange their life to make it work or are willing to accept the limitations. That's great, I'm pleased for you But for me and millions of others, it's not feasible right now which is a shame because it's the only exciting and new technology on the horizon.

[George111]

Mr Will said:

George111 said:

Hydrogen gets rid of many of the drawbacks of battery cars - slow refill and limited range. Still not perfect but that's the future.

Hydrogen adds the drawbacks of petrol cars though - having to visit a filling station to refuel, transporting it around the country/world to get it to the filling stations. It only seems more practical because it is closer to what we are used to.

Refilling takes 5 mins and range is >300-400 miles and multiple refilling points as at least 50% of petrol stations could accommodate a hydrogen point. That's what makes it practical.

[carl_w]

kambites said:

That seems to be the current plan; whether it'll ever happen is of course another matter.

Indeed, and of course in the amount of time it takes to build a nuclear power station we could well have 11 million EVs on the road.

[otolith]

[Galsia]

Impasse said:

Got to feel sorry for electric car owners. Fancy having no social life whatsoever and never going out at night.

Most people would only need to charge it once per week or so.

[Impasse]

Galsia said:

Most people would only need to charge it once per week or so.

In that case you'd have to question the wisdom of buying a £30k car in the first place.

[rscott]

George111 said:

Mr Will said:

George111 said:

OK, I still can't recharge it where I work and if I live in an apartment in London I still can't recharge it at home. So it's still a dead duck with an even further reduced range from the previous Tesla cars. Surely with reduced performance you'd expect increased range . . . ?

Until you can recharge these cars at a couple of places in every town/village they're not going to catch on.

I could recharge one literally 6ft from my front door. I could also recharge it at work (Tesla Superchargers already in the carpark). The places that I visit that are both A) more than 100 miles away and B) would not allow me to do an overnight charge are virtually none-existent.

I'm not trying to claim that it is suitable for everyone, but central London apartment dwellers are only a small part of the population, and an even smaller percentage of the people who'd be looking to spend 35k on a car. This is a practical option for a significant number of people.

No it's not. The majority of car users in the UK do not have a drive, they park on the road and they can't charge a car on the road or have a drive/car parking area which is not directly next to the house. Electric charging is not feasible for the majority of people with the current technology, it doesn't work. Who wants to route their journey by supercharger charging points ? Nobody.

It does work for the few who can arrange their life to make it work or are willing to accept the limitations. That's great, I'm pleased for you But for me and millions of others, it's not feasible right now which is a shame because it's the only exciting and new technology on the horizon.

Not sure that part is true. This RAC Foundation report claims 75% are parked off the road. If these are on driveways, garages or private carparks, then there is the opportunity to install charging infrastructure. Even in urban areas, over 50% are parked on private land.

In all areas, 12 per cent of household vehicles are parked in a garage overnight; 61 per cent are parked on private property (but not garaged); 25 per cent are parked on the street; and 3 per cent are parked in other places.

The proportion of household vehicles parked overnight on private property but not garaged is highest in rural areas (72 per cent) and generally declines as settlement size increases, down to 55 per cent in urban conurbations.

- See more at: http://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobilit...

[Mr Will]

George111 said:

Mr Will said:

George111 said:

Hydrogen gets rid of many of the drawbacks of battery cars - slow refill and limited range. Still not perfect but that's the future.

Hydrogen adds the drawbacks of petrol cars though - having to visit a filling station to refuel, transporting it around the country/world to get it to the filling stations. It only seems more practical because it is closer to what we are used to.

Refilling takes 5 mins and range is >300-400 miles and multiple refilling points as at least 50% of petrol stations could accommodate a hydrogen point. That's what makes it practical.

Refilling a hydrogen car takes 5 minutes, plus the time taken to drive to the filling station, queue up for the pump, queue up to pay and then drive back to the route you actually wanted to be on.

Recharging an electric car involves plugging it in when I get home at night and then unplugging it again the next morning. Total effort <30 seconds and it always has 200+ miles range when I get in each morning. I would go months without ever having to visit a public charging station.

Imagine for a moment that someone invented a hydrogen fuel cell for mobile phones (bear with me!). It is tiny and lightweight and would power your phone for a whole week on a single charge and recharge in just 5 minutes BUT you need to take it to a mobile phone shop to get it recharged - do you see how ridiculous the idea is?