Life and Death of Li Ion batteries
Discussion
My Leaf is 11 years old and is down to 2/3 after 107,000 miles. But it was only 24kWh to start with. A Niro or something with 3 times the size would have been cycled only as 1/3 as much and so would only lose 10% odd.
I have some 15 year old cells from an electric motorcycle conversion which I didn't use much. The ones I let go totally flat are knackered but the ones which didn't have lost virtually nothing, so calendar life not an issue.
The longevity of large lithium ion looks very good.
I have some 15 year old cells from an electric motorcycle conversion which I didn't use much. The ones I let go totally flat are knackered but the ones which didn't have lost virtually nothing, so calendar life not an issue.
The longevity of large lithium ion looks very good.
granada203028 said:
My Leaf is 11 years old and is down to 2/3 after 107,000 miles. But it was only 24kWh to start with. A Niro or something with 3 times the size would have been cycled only as 1/3 as much and so would only lose 10% odd.
I have some 15 year old cells from an electric motorcycle conversion which I didn't use much. The ones I let go totally flat are knackered but the ones which didn't have lost virtually nothing, so calendar life not an issue.
The longevity of large lithium ion looks very good.
It's also a very early, low cost EV with relatively poor air cooled battery temp management.I have some 15 year old cells from an electric motorcycle conversion which I didn't use much. The ones I let go totally flat are knackered but the ones which didn't have lost virtually nothing, so calendar life not an issue.
The longevity of large lithium ion looks very good.
wormus said:
Oh good, another thread to illicit irrational hatred from the EV freaks 
are you saying EV battery life is infinite? Here are some randomly selected facts to help with discussion https://www.midtronics.com/blog/do-electric-car-ev...
Active battery management is a factor but so is the rate of (rapid) charge and discharge. It’s commonly accepted that an EV battery needs replacing every 10 years or 100k miles.
Thanks so much. I've just started a 3 hour train journey and this will keep me laughing until I reach Reading. are you saying EV battery life is infinite? Here are some randomly selected facts to help with discussion https://www.midtronics.com/blog/do-electric-car-ev...Active battery management is a factor but so is the rate of (rapid) charge and discharge. It’s commonly accepted that an EV battery needs replacing every 10 years or 100k miles.
This sort of debate must have the manufacturers tearing their hair out. Battery life seemed to be a major concern so, to build consumer confidence, they offered much longer warranties on this "new" technology. In comparison, other changes in technology did not get any such cover: fuel injection, turbos, dual-shaft gearboxes, etc. (admittedly less significant).
Then they face claims that these long warranties show that the batteries will expire shortly after the cover ends. Yet the same arguments are not applied to conventional components.
Given the way that the media love to splash anti-EV stories, the fact that there haven't been scores of accounts of battery failure in older and higher-mileage cars is telling.
Then they face claims that these long warranties show that the batteries will expire shortly after the cover ends. Yet the same arguments are not applied to conventional components.
Given the way that the media love to splash anti-EV stories, the fact that there haven't been scores of accounts of battery failure in older and higher-mileage cars is telling.
Mikehig said:
This sort of debate must have the manufacturers tearing their hair out. Battery life seemed to be a major concern so, to build consumer confidence, they offered much longer warranties on this "new" technology. In comparison, other changes in technology did not get any such cover: fuel injection, turbos, dual-shaft gearboxes, etc. (admittedly less significant).
Then they face claims that these long warranties show that the batteries will expire shortly after the cover ends. Yet the same arguments are not applied to conventional components.
Given the way that the media love to splash anti-EV stories, the fact that there haven't been scores of accounts of battery failure in older and higher-mileage cars is telling.
Yep. My ICE warranty ends at 3 years. So engine only likely to last 4 obviously.Then they face claims that these long warranties show that the batteries will expire shortly after the cover ends. Yet the same arguments are not applied to conventional components.
Given the way that the media love to splash anti-EV stories, the fact that there haven't been scores of accounts of battery failure in older and higher-mileage cars is telling.
LHRFlightman said:
wormus said:
Oh good, another thread to illicit irrational hatred from the EV freaks are you saying EV battery life is infinite? Here are some randomly selected facts to help with discussion https://www.midtronics.com/blog/do-electric-car-ev...
Active battery management is a factor but so is the rate of (rapid) charge and discharge. It’s commonly accepted that an EV battery needs replacing every 10 years or 100k miles.
Thanks so much. I've just started a 3 hour train journey and this will keep me laughing until I reach Reading. are you saying EV battery life is infinite? Here are some randomly selected facts to help with discussion https://www.midtronics.com/blog/do-electric-car-ev...Active battery management is a factor but so is the rate of (rapid) charge and discharge. It’s commonly accepted that an EV battery needs replacing every 10 years or 100k miles.
Discombobulate said:
Yep. My ICE warranty ends at 3 years. So engine only likely to last 4 obviously.
Warranties are an insurance policy for the purchaser, based on risk. What they are saying is beyond a certain point, the probability of failure is such that the manufacturer won’t cover it. It’s a decent indicator of expected lifespan. Besides it’s specifically the battery that’s covered for 8 years, 100k miles, not the whole car. The battery in your ICE is only covered for 3 or 5 years. We’re not talking about the warranty on your engine are we. wormus said:
if you buy a 100k, 10 year old Tesla, with unknown charging/usage history, how much life does it still have?
If you buy a 100K 10 year old ICE engined (fill in the make and model) car with an unknown service history, how long before the timing belt breaks?Both questions are impossible to answer with any accuracy.
wormus said:
Warranties are an insurance policy for the purchaser, based on risk. What they are saying is beyond a certain point, the probability of failure is such that the manufacturer won’t cover it. It’s a decent indicator of expected lifespan. Besides it’s specifically the battery that’s covered for 8 years, 100k miles, not the whole car. The battery in your ICE is only covered for 3 or 5 years. We’re not talking about the warranty on your engine are we.
We're discussing the most complex and expensive to replace part of the vehicle, so the obvious comparison is between the EV battery pack and the drivetrain in an ICE vehicle. A 12v car battery bears no relation to an EV traction battery.If it's a decent indicator of expected lifespan as you say, why do most ICE manufacturers only warrant their engines for 3 years? Honda, a paragon of reliability, offer 5 year/50k miles on their ICE drivetrains, so are we to expect them to go pop at 6 years, 60k?
You need a consistent argument as you're tying yourself in knots at the minute trying to maintain your preconceptions.
NMNeil said:
wormus said:
if you buy a 100k, 10 year old Tesla, with unknown charging/usage history, how much life does it still have?
If you buy a 100K 10 year old ICE engined (fill in the make and model) car with an unknown service history, how long before the timing belt breaks?Both questions are impossible to answer with any accuracy.
Good luck trying that with an ICE car.
Edited by SWoll on Wednesday 1st March 17:07
I did (some time ago) harbour concerns regarding battery degradation in hybrids/EV's and experienced the same criticisms when our 2011 Prius was new. Battery needing replaced at 5 yrs etc or when the warranty ran out. The warranty was actually 8 yrs however the battery was showing 100% health and provided the same 1.25 mile range that it had new when I traded it at nearly 12yrs old and 93k miles. No detectable change in outright performance either. Toyota Techstream software showed that the 28 individual battery modules were in an equivalent excellent state of health. NiMh not Li Ion I know.
This together with more recently published data and anecdotal evidence from EV fora etc led me to have minimal concerns when purchasing our Kona EV. Saw several examples of the original Ionic EV with virtually max range remaining after up to 8 yrs and 80k miles. Some of the range could be from accessing previously unused buffer capacity (3.5 kWh in the 64kWh [useable] Kona) but even so nothing I would be concerned about. One of these cars (USA) was primarily rapid charged to 100% too.
Like others I rarely charge above 80% and the lowest I've been is 26%. I've since spoken to two of our EV owning neighbours and they do the same. I've charged twice to 100% (at 7kWh) before long trips since last July and the manual recommends this as often as once per month (depending on usage I assume) to fully balance the cells and ensure longevity.
I also have 24 (~15 yrs old) 18650 Li Ion cells harvested from failed laptop battery packs. Some were completely flat but charged easily enough to what appears to be full capacity and have been regularly drained in our MTB lights and hand held torches. Only one of them has subsequently failed to charge in the last year.
I still have some concerns about my particular car but only because any vehicle can develop expensive faults regardless of its method of propulsion.
At least it's not gone up in flames yet
This together with more recently published data and anecdotal evidence from EV fora etc led me to have minimal concerns when purchasing our Kona EV. Saw several examples of the original Ionic EV with virtually max range remaining after up to 8 yrs and 80k miles. Some of the range could be from accessing previously unused buffer capacity (3.5 kWh in the 64kWh [useable] Kona) but even so nothing I would be concerned about. One of these cars (USA) was primarily rapid charged to 100% too.
Like others I rarely charge above 80% and the lowest I've been is 26%. I've since spoken to two of our EV owning neighbours and they do the same. I've charged twice to 100% (at 7kWh) before long trips since last July and the manual recommends this as often as once per month (depending on usage I assume) to fully balance the cells and ensure longevity.
I also have 24 (~15 yrs old) 18650 Li Ion cells harvested from failed laptop battery packs. Some were completely flat but charged easily enough to what appears to be full capacity and have been regularly drained in our MTB lights and hand held torches. Only one of them has subsequently failed to charge in the last year.
I still have some concerns about my particular car but only because any vehicle can develop expensive faults regardless of its method of propulsion.
At least it's not gone up in flames yet
SWoll said:
We're discussing the most complex and expensive to replace part of the vehicle, so the obvious comparison is between the EV battery pack and the drivetrain in an ICE vehicle. A 12v car battery bears no relation to an EV traction battery.
No we’re not, check the thread title - it’s definitely about batteries.wormus said:
Discombobulate said:
Yep. My ICE warranty ends at 3 years. So engine only likely to last 4 obviously.
Warranties are an insurance policy for the purchaser, based on risk. What they are saying is beyond a certain point, the probability of failure is such that the manufacturer won’t cover it. It’s a decent indicator of expected lifespan. Besides it’s specifically the battery that’s covered for 8 years, 100k miles, not the whole car. The battery in your ICE is only covered for 3 or 5 years. We’re not talking about the warranty on your engine are we. Surely you're not naive enough to think that manufacturers warrant things to a point that they expect failure?
Warranties are primarily a legal compliance and commercial product, not an engineering one. They are a balance between the expected time that something could go wrong in a worst case scenario, the legal argument of 'fit for purpose' and commercially how little the manufacturer can get away with covering.
To say that it's warrantied for 8 years therefore that's it's expected lifespan is bonkers.
The only thing you could perhaps say is that it's warrantied for 8 years therefore that's it's minimum lifespan as that's what the manufacturer will stand behind. It by no means indicates that anything beyond that is a bonus.
NMNeil said:
wormus said:
if you buy a 100k, 10 year old Tesla, with unknown charging/usage history, how much life does it still have?
If you buy a 100K 10 year old ICE engined (fill in the make and model) car with an unknown service history, how long before the timing belt breaks?Both questions are impossible to answer with any accuracy.
Muzzer79 said:
wormus said:
Discombobulate said:
Yep. My ICE warranty ends at 3 years. So engine only likely to last 4 obviously.
Warranties are an insurance policy for the purchaser, based on risk. What they are saying is beyond a certain point, the probability of failure is such that the manufacturer won’t cover it. It’s a decent indicator of expected lifespan. Besides it’s specifically the battery that’s covered for 8 years, 100k miles, not the whole car. The battery in your ICE is only covered for 3 or 5 years. We’re not talking about the warranty on your engine are we. SWoll said:
This. Although with the Tesla you can connect a cheap ODB2 dongle, download scanmytesla and get plenty of information on battery health on your phone.
Good luck trying that with an ICE car.
Clever man! For the battery on my ICE, I use my cheapo Amazon battery tester which cost me a tenner. Good luck trying that with an ICE car.
Edited by SWoll on Wednesday 1st March 17:07
I'm in the automotive battery industry. A current gen EV will breeze through 250k miles before it gets anywhere close to 80%. Any make, any model, anything in the last 5 years. The battery will outlast the vehicle.
There is so much b
ks around battery degredation it amazes me. Stupid people and Internet echo Chambers.
There is so much b
ks around battery degredation it amazes me. Stupid people and Internet echo Chambers. wormus said:
Muzzer79 said:
wormus said:
Discombobulate said:
Yep. My ICE warranty ends at 3 years. So engine only likely to last 4 obviously.
Warranties are an insurance policy for the purchaser, based on risk. What they are saying is beyond a certain point, the probability of failure is such that the manufacturer won’t cover it. It’s a decent indicator of expected lifespan. Besides it’s specifically the battery that’s covered for 8 years, 100k miles, not the whole car. The battery in your ICE is only covered for 3 or 5 years. We’re not talking about the warranty on your engine are we. But that doesn't mean you can pick an incorrect indicator of lifespan and just go with that because you think it represents something that it doesn't...
wormus said:
SWoll said:
This. Although with the Tesla you can connect a cheap ODB2 dongle, download scanmytesla and get plenty of information on battery health on your phone.
Good luck trying that with an ICE car.
Clever man! For the battery on my ICE, I use my cheapo Amazon battery tester which cost me a tenner. Good luck trying that with an ICE car.
Edited by SWoll on Wednesday 1st March 17:07
Attempting to have a discussion with you reminds me of what it was like dealing with my kids when they were younger. Baffling but fun.
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