Porsche Taycan - first 'drivers' EV?
Discussion
RobDickinson said:
There was talk about doubling output to 40k not sure if they have or not, the audi etron gt will be the same platform not sure if built on the same line.
They have to target growth of EV sales and move ICE lines to EV fairly smartly. But for as long as possible all manufacturers of EV's will play the 'we're struggling - get your order in today' card. Which is fair enough!NB: cars that share platforms do so for a number of sensible reasons, one of which is that you can have one line producing the base platform and then split it's output in to separate lines for each marque/version. Whatever the quoted production rate for the Taycan specifically, no way of knowing how many of the same EV platforms they're geared up to produce across the entire VAG.
SWoll said:
Doesn't seem to be the general consensus from the motoring press, and with Tesla not advertising they've got no reason to be bias I'm aware of?
Appreciate the Taycan will be considerably better, but then it's nearly 3 times the price when comparing base model against base model so you would hope so.
It's not just a better build quality, better engineering, more prestigious marque and so on... It's a more expensive car to produce. Performance cars are always more expensive to produce than more general purpose cars of a similar quality level due to the expensive and performance components used, components that aren't produced on such a massive scale. Lots of good reasons why performance is expensive.Appreciate the Taycan will be considerably better, but then it's nearly 3 times the price when comparing base model against base model so you would hope so.
The fact that the taycan is also a far higher spec interior quality and luxury level above the model 3, any comparison becomes pointless really.
I think best to compare the value of the taycan to it's ICE Porsche equivalents. If you do that, and try and buy a comparable Porsche with the same performance potential, then the taycan is a bit of a bargain.
If the cheaper ones do cost £70k or less, then the value proposition is pretty insane for such a car. The cheaper ones won't be as quick, but still bloody quick in real terms.
gangzoom said:
Am not sure I've seen any negative press on the Taycan from anyone aside from the price?
Almost feels like some people have some serious insecurities about picking the Taycan over a Tesla, much like even this whole thread
.
Personally I would love one if I could afford one.
In a way, complaining about the price is almost a positive. It means people want one even if it's beyond their budget!Almost feels like some people have some serious insecurities about picking the Taycan over a Tesla, much like even this whole thread
.Personally I would love one if I could afford one.
I do think the cheaper one(s) will in the end probably be the best buy - but these days the hot cars always get released first it seems. Then the cheaper versions appear... Then after a few years a really hot 'final' version appears.
All pretty standard. My only question is how the hell they managed to bolt a turbo to an electric motor
PrancingHorses said:
I sat in one in Westfield which was literally falling apart in the showroom - see the Model 3 thread for pics I posted.
I then took one out on a test drive and it felt like it would fall apart within 6 months.
It won't be long before Mr Musk is selling only batteries - the quality of Tesla's leave a lot to be desired and if you don't believe me have some conversation with real owners - not keyboard warriors. I have friends who own these £100k cars and have no ends of issues with them.
I think the Polestar will be a much better electric car if you want a cheaper but more premium electric car offering
https://www.polestar.com/cars/polestar-2
Couldn't agree more. I sat in the one in Westfield whilst working there and I couldn't believe some of the quality issues and crappy materials. To double check I sat in another at MK centre and it was the same. Out of interest I googled the issue and watched a couple of YouTube videos from Tesla fans/owners bemoaning the issues. One had a panel gap difference of 8mm I think, and the other had some totally unacceptable areas of missing paint. The paint was actually missing almost, but then lacquered over all the same.I then took one out on a test drive and it felt like it would fall apart within 6 months.
It won't be long before Mr Musk is selling only batteries - the quality of Tesla's leave a lot to be desired and if you don't believe me have some conversation with real owners - not keyboard warriors. I have friends who own these £100k cars and have no ends of issues with them.
I think the Polestar will be a much better electric car if you want a cheaper but more premium electric car offering
https://www.polestar.com/cars/polestar-2
The biggest thing for me though was that interior didn't feel 'designed'. It felt modern, of course it did - it IS modern. There was obviously a statement being made about what modern cars should look like inside. It just wasn't made very well and I'm not convinced it's really the feel very many people want in their cars. Spartan is a good word... Both the Taycan and the i-Pace have gone down a rather different route, quite similar to one another, and both look far more appealing to me. And frankly, comparing the i-Pace inside/outside to a Model 3 is a hands down win to the Jag. I've spent many hours with the i-Pace and like most new Jag/LR cars, it's a pretty awesome blend of quality and flair in there. You certainly wouldn't question or resent the price tag when you climb in each day. Taycan looks to have achieved the same. I'll be sat in one in a few days time to make sure
Cheib said:
It’s expensive to buy without a doubt but I really believe it’ll be cheaper to own becaus of residuals. Porsche are a low volume manufacturer and I am pretty confident demand will outstrip supply for quite a while. Spec one sensibly and do 10k miles a year and for the first couple of years it’ll cost you maybe 10% in depreciation per annum. People will be paying list price for a used one for a good while when you have to wait over a year for a new one.
In 40 years time will a Porsche museum have an example of the first EV Porsche? Yes.It is indeed a bit of a milestone. And also a bit of bargain compared to any other Porsche. Anyone who takes early delivery could probably sell it the next day well above RRP if they sought connections with people that really want one..
RobDickinson said:
You are right, they dont.
The taycan is a different proposition to either.
But we've had ~5 years of media spin around the Porsche Tesla killer ( remember initially 300 mile range $85k car that charges at 350kw) and now we get a $185k car that goes ~200 miles and will likely charge at 50kw unless you are lucky or pay more.
I doubt the taycan buyers care, it will be a success and it doesnt have to match tesla on every metric (or even any), its going to be a better car to thrash than a model S and be very well put together.
You're right - but then all auto makers play the hype-train game the same way pretty much. To be fair, Tesla do deliver on their unlikely sounding future promises but on the other hand, the hyped features they show off are relatively simple to achieve but don't add much to the day to day function or driving pleasure of the car. There are stories of the current performance Model S hitting close to 2.2 seconds to 60, which is hugely impressive to imagine, let alone feel. But you have to 'prepare the car' first and then again to repeat the experience. The Taycan driver, without pushing at all will feel the quality of drive every day without making any effort at all. All Porsche's deliver that feeling - even the minger that is the Panamera manages to feel front end sharp and responsive.The taycan is a different proposition to either.
But we've had ~5 years of media spin around the Porsche Tesla killer ( remember initially 300 mile range $85k car that charges at 350kw) and now we get a $185k car that goes ~200 miles and will likely charge at 50kw unless you are lucky or pay more.
I doubt the taycan buyers care, it will be a success and it doesnt have to match tesla on every metric (or even any), its going to be a better car to thrash than a model S and be very well put together.
Porsche say they will produce 20k units per year. In reality, they likely have plans to at least double that very quickly. But as a sports car manufacturer they don't need or want to sell more units than Tesla with the model 3. It's not going to be difficult in the current EV hype market to find 40, 60, 80k people a year that like the sound of an EV (genuine thoroughbred) performance car for circa £100-120k.
Whatever number they can produce, they can sell. That means that whatever price they put on the car is correct. It's business - everything is worth no less than what you can get for it.
Edited by TheDeuce on Thursday 5th September 22:19
SWoll said:
Fanboy warfare.
I don't see that tbh. This car is indeed a bit of a reality check to those that thought Tesla would own the EV market... But honestly most views I have heard from those wanting to buy the Taycan or already owning the Model S are fairly respectful of one anothers existence.It's not as if that many people would really expect the EV future to not have the same variety of options in the end as the present ICE range has provided for decades. think Porsche have done a particularly good job with this car, the Nurburgring time shows it's the real deal. But give it 2-3 year and whatever type of car you want will be available from various manufacturers as an EV. At that point the comparison between a Porsche sports car and a Tesla family saloon will seem pretty ridiculous. It's only being made now because there are so few exciting EV's on the market today. That will change very soon, we will be discussing new options in less than a fortnight.
Mikehig said:
<< In 40 years time will a Porsche museum have an example of the first EV Porsche? Yes. >>
Ironically one of the first cars with Porsche involvement was a hulking great thing with electric motors in the wheel hubs, way back at the end of the 19th century: the Lohner-Porsche. There's a replica in the Porsche museum. A hybrid version was also developed with petrol-driven generators providing power for the motors. So we've come full circle!
I know the car! There was another electric 'carriage' from around that time that briefly seemed like to common sense route, before it's hopeless range and power was eclipsed by 'proper' cars.Ironically one of the first cars with Porsche involvement was a hulking great thing with electric motors in the wheel hubs, way back at the end of the 19th century: the Lohner-Porsche. There's a replica in the Porsche museum. A hybrid version was also developed with petrol-driven generators providing power for the motors. So we've come full circle!
I think obviously the Model S will one day be seen as a pivotal moment in the history or the car, and will be quite valuable. Also each first timer in each segment will eventually be quite cherished. Not least the Taycan as it's the first performance focused EV that enough people will own to have fond memories of.
Right now the masses still see EV as something of a novelty. But when it comes time to buy a new car, I suspect many will start to consider just how short lived the values of a new ICE car might be in a fast changing world. I firmly suspect that a lot of people whom 2 years ago wouldn't consider themselves a likely EV owner might pause and consider changing their stance. It's hard to identify a period of rapid change when it's happening, it's usually identified later on. But I'm pretty sure a significant swing will occur in the next few years - and that any cars leading that change will one day be seen as fairly important.
I think I've been fairly honest about wanting an EV for a few years as a company car because of the BIK tax break. But for sure many Taycan's will be bought and used very lightly, mostly as a long term investment. God knows how many Porsche's have been bought over the years to not be driven.. I suspect a number bettered only by Ferrari.
Durzel said:
How divorced from reality do you have to be to use "Porsche" and "affordable" in the same sentence?
It looks like a nice car, and competition for Tesla is good, but unoptioned Porsches only exist in theory. The cheapest Taycan anyone will actually buy will have ~£20k of options at least and I imagine it's possible to spec it into the stratosphere like every other Porsche.
The bare-faced cheek of adding a "Turbo" moniker to it when it doesn't have any turbo of any kind is just ridiculous too. Not that the fanboys will care.
The above said - it will be a great car and certainly more refined than a Model S, if you like the Porsche/German aesthetic, and residuals/overs will be typical "special" Porsche.
TheDeuce: WIth respect your bias is pretty naked, from the get go.
What bias? I have never wanted a Porsche before, almost the opposite to be honest. And my comments about affordability are related to the UK BIK cut to 0%, which makes any EV unbelievably affordable relative to anything else in the same performance bracket.It looks like a nice car, and competition for Tesla is good, but unoptioned Porsches only exist in theory. The cheapest Taycan anyone will actually buy will have ~£20k of options at least and I imagine it's possible to spec it into the stratosphere like every other Porsche.
The bare-faced cheek of adding a "Turbo" moniker to it when it doesn't have any turbo of any kind is just ridiculous too. Not that the fanboys will care.
The above said - it will be a great car and certainly more refined than a Model S, if you like the Porsche/German aesthetic, and residuals/overs will be typical "special" Porsche.
TheDeuce: WIth respect your bias is pretty naked, from the get go.
Edited by Durzel on Friday 6th September 14:00
If you think what I am saying is biased or incorrect, it is perhaps because you have made some fairly simplistic assumptions.
As for the 'turbo' moniker, I agree - it's a nonsense. Sadly, I have yet to find an option to get that bit de-badged. I'd far rather just say 'Taycan' on the back. What version it is doesn't need to be public knowledge imo.
So today, I met the Taycan...
I was stood next to it as lady pulled the silk off, I stroked it (car, not lady)... wimpered a little and in the end they took pity and let me sit inside
I have to say that my first impression was the size of the thing. It's big for a sportscar, but at the same time it is 100% not remotely like a Panamera in it's proportions or style. It really did put me in mind of a slightly inflated 911. It looks like a proper Porsche sports car, no doubt about that at all.
My second impression was that this is 'new' Porsche, this is where they're headed with the interior and tech etc. In the past I have felt they were a little sparse inside.. High quality, beautifully built, but almost holding back somehow in the joy and flair department. This thing though..? My god it's a nice place to sit. Everything is driver focused, everything is tactile and pleasant to touch and the selection of materials and design flair is excellent. It's clear this is more than their first foray into EV, it's also a start of them updating their image, no doubt about that. I had only just got out of an i-Pace HSE when I stepped in to the Taycan, and it was up a notch - that is some praise I think. I looked in a few other cars in the range before leaving the stand, as a place to sit, they are now clearly a solid generation behind.
Of course, the drive is something of a mystery to us all right now. The Nurburgring time is proof that it is hugely capable, right up their with cars costing substantially more. That doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a great daily driver and b-road blaster though - although I can appreciate what it takes to run the ring in under 8 seconds, so I have little doubt it will put a smile on any passionate drivers face often enough to make up for whatever foibles it may have that we don't know about yet.
As a result of my encounter, I called my local Porsche dealer - it's not a done deal just yet, I have to figure some stuff out and honestly the price is a stretch... But with the BIK tax as it is set to be when deliveries begin, this is maybe my chance to have something I normally could not. I'm going to sleep on it, but hand on heart I can't imagine I will be able to hold off putting pre-order money down very soon. Which, if anyone is interested, is 100% refundable up until the point a build slot is offered and accepted. In the UK the pre-order deposit is £5k.
This is more than I hoped the car would cost, and way more than I originally expected to spend on an EV. But there simply isn't anything else EV in the performance segment (as in power, brakes, chassis, centre of gravity) for less.
I was stood next to it as lady pulled the silk off, I stroked it (car, not lady)... wimpered a little and in the end they took pity and let me sit inside
I have to say that my first impression was the size of the thing. It's big for a sportscar, but at the same time it is 100% not remotely like a Panamera in it's proportions or style. It really did put me in mind of a slightly inflated 911. It looks like a proper Porsche sports car, no doubt about that at all.
My second impression was that this is 'new' Porsche, this is where they're headed with the interior and tech etc. In the past I have felt they were a little sparse inside.. High quality, beautifully built, but almost holding back somehow in the joy and flair department. This thing though..? My god it's a nice place to sit. Everything is driver focused, everything is tactile and pleasant to touch and the selection of materials and design flair is excellent. It's clear this is more than their first foray into EV, it's also a start of them updating their image, no doubt about that. I had only just got out of an i-Pace HSE when I stepped in to the Taycan, and it was up a notch - that is some praise I think. I looked in a few other cars in the range before leaving the stand, as a place to sit, they are now clearly a solid generation behind.
Of course, the drive is something of a mystery to us all right now. The Nurburgring time is proof that it is hugely capable, right up their with cars costing substantially more. That doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a great daily driver and b-road blaster though - although I can appreciate what it takes to run the ring in under 8 seconds, so I have little doubt it will put a smile on any passionate drivers face often enough to make up for whatever foibles it may have that we don't know about yet.
As a result of my encounter, I called my local Porsche dealer - it's not a done deal just yet, I have to figure some stuff out and honestly the price is a stretch... But with the BIK tax as it is set to be when deliveries begin, this is maybe my chance to have something I normally could not. I'm going to sleep on it, but hand on heart I can't imagine I will be able to hold off putting pre-order money down very soon. Which, if anyone is interested, is 100% refundable up until the point a build slot is offered and accepted. In the UK the pre-order deposit is £5k.
This is more than I hoped the car would cost, and way more than I originally expected to spend on an EV. But there simply isn't anything else EV in the performance segment (as in power, brakes, chassis, centre of gravity) for less.
RobDickinson said:
AFIK the BIK changes will make this £17-20k a year cheaper to own than a similar ICE car.
Depends on your tax bracket, but yes - it's substantial. So much so that a person paying BIK and running their own ltd could argue that the Taycan is about as expensive as a BMW 320d.That is literally the only reason I can contemplate the decision I think I have already made
Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 10th September 21:27
RobDickinson said:
TheDeuce said:
RobDickinson said:
AFIK the BIK changes will make this £17-20k a year cheaper to own than a similar ICE car.
Depends on your tax bracket, but yes - it's substantial. So much so that a person paying BIK could argue that the Taycan is about as expensive as a BMW 320d.That is literally the only reason I can contemplate the decision I think I have already made
But every now and then, us micro business owners get a break and this is one of them. The money is in the company and quite frankly this is about the cheapest way of releasing that money right now. Obviously you have to value and want such a car for it to make sense at all - but I do. If I took an extra £1000 a month out to as income, I would get £550(ish) after tax NI costs to my company to spend on a new car. If I direct £1000 p/m to the Taycan, I get the full benefit of that £1000, it avoids tax and NI complications entirely.
RobDickinson said:
Yeah but I think your situation will be an exception rather than the normal. Evn at a lower tax band BIK saves you a lot on a taycan vs panamera or whatever
Oh totally. It really is a no brainer. Anyone in my position that ever wanted a car of this value is suddenly in a position to make it happen.I'm not sure if my position will be the exception though, not so far as the UK is concerned at least. The dealer I spoke to today was quick to latch on to my position and was well aware of the BIK incentive - my guess is that the 30 deposits they have already taken are mostly from ltd owners/operators looking to take advantage of this incentive.
I suspect that those who earn substantially more would still take the red blooded petrol cars - I would if I'm honest. It's just a freak happening that a £115k Porsche is suddenly in the grasps of company owners that previously had a budget of about half that.
Witchfinder said:
TheDeuce said:
I can appreciate what it takes to run the ring in under 8 seconds...
The Millennium Falcon?TheDeuce said:
This is more than I hoped the car would cost, and way more than I originally expected to spend on an EV.
But seriously though, I hope you can afford your dream. I think the Turbo S is unnecessary, and as long as you're judicious with the options list, it need not be absolutely ruinous.The base 'turbo' doesn't want for very much so far as options go. My ideal spec is £128k (12k ish options) on the configurator which compared to most Porsche models specced the same way is oddly quite modest.
I'll probably end up with fewer options than my ideal still.
Witchfinder said:
Those of us old enough to remember it will recall "turbo" buttons on PCs, usually those packing a 286, 386, or 486 CPU. It's arguable that turbo is now a generic term for a thing that enhances performance.
It's a good point - I imagine that at least half the people writing comments on YT or forums mocking the 'Turbo' thing are using a device or computer that has some form of 'turbo' mode or hardware description In a way it IS disingenuous to use on a car, as a car is a place where you might expect a turbo-charger to be present, if turbo is in the name... On the other hand, there is an argument that sticking 'turbo' on anything, including a car, is a simple and effective way of letting the average chap figure out it's extra quick in some way. I think in Porsche's case, it must have been a tricky decision. They're normally fairly dry and logical when it comes to naming things, but the fact is that 'Turbo' has become the name associated with it's more potent model versions, it's already established. If I squint I can start to imagine how that board meeting played out and how they arrived at a slightly awkward decision. I'm sure they were well aware some mocking would follow!! That doesn't automatically mean that it wasn't the best decision though. No one chucking their opinions around this forum is going to give the pro's and cons of such a decision as much thought as those protecting and directing a multi billion pound brand after all.
Durzel said:
TheDeuce said:
What bias? I have never wanted a Porsche before, almost the opposite to be honest. And my comments about affordability are related to the UK BIK cut to 0%, which makes any EV unbelievably affordable relative to anything else in the same performance bracket.
Maybe bias is strong, but you've been gushing about the car quite a bit whilst comparing others unfavourably from the get-go. I got the sense that you'd already made the decision to buy one from the opening post and were just looking for validation. No big deal though, each to their own etc.Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 11th September 12:44
This isn't a comparison thread, it's a thread to discuss the merits of the first performance, drivers EV. Since I'm considering spending a significant amount of money on the thing, I of course want to discuss it a little first - even if only to hear others views, which is useful sometimes.
I believe I have only made direct and negative comparisons to other EV's when people have posted about the Model S being a superior performance car - which it is not. I'm not pointing that out because I'm only capable of appreciating the Taycan and am blind to all other EV's. It's just a fact, and i'd rather not see the thread de-railed with nonsense about another car, in another EV segment that has nothing to do with the Taycan, or why I or others might want a car like the Taycan.
otolith said:
Eh? The EV control system is massively simpler than the powertrain control module in an ICE!
I think you are looking for explanations for a position which is basically irrational, emotional. It’s fine to say that you just don’t like the idea and don’t think you would enjoy it.
Personally, I think you could build an electric driver’s car far better than most cars on the market. The weight distribution could be excellent, the throttle response outstanding, and there’s no reason you couldn’t design the suspension and steering to be sublime. It could be rear drive only, it doesn’t need to use any fancy systems to optimise traction.
This is true. The key ingredients the engineers have spent decades extracting from ICE are all naturally present by default when you switch to electric.I think you are looking for explanations for a position which is basically irrational, emotional. It’s fine to say that you just don’t like the idea and don’t think you would enjoy it.
Personally, I think you could build an electric driver’s car far better than most cars on the market. The weight distribution could be excellent, the throttle response outstanding, and there’s no reason you couldn’t design the suspension and steering to be sublime. It could be rear drive only, it doesn’t need to use any fancy systems to optimise traction.
It's not all rosy though.. the batteries at present are the achilles heel and hold back the pureness of ICE sports cars, because they're simply too big and heavy. Right now putting the batteries in the floor is a decent compromise, because the centre of gravity is excellent, yet the overall weight of the cars is unsatisfactory for a true drivers car.
The really huge step will be a shift to solid state batteries. At least twice the density (so half the weight) is already proven, charge times will be a fraction of what they are today and the lifespan of the cells will at worst outlive the car and in all probability outlive the owner. At that point, we will have EV's lighter and more powerful than an ICE car, with excellent range, super fast charging, a throttle response impossible with ICE, a perfect torque curve (or, line..), no heat management issues and endlessly useable.
There is today hundreds of billions of investment in solid state batteries and the first to bring them to mass market production will change the world. Your phone will last a week without charge and be slimmer, range anxiety will evaporate, solar energy storage will be simple and compact etc etc etc.
The EV evolution is driving the demand and limits of current batteries. It is that demand that is charging the need and value for the next generation of battery and of course, in the end that will come to fruition. The EV's today are all hamstrung by the limits of battery technology, but already they're good enough to justify the shortcomings. If anyone wants a better drivers car than has previously been possible with any fuel, the best way to help out is probably to buy a decent EV today and become part of the driving force that is giving the techies the motivation to get better batteries to market ASAP.
otolith said:
True, the weight is an issue - but the Elise based mk1 Tesla Roadster came in at 1300kg ten years ago. I’m sure that could be done better if a small sports car were designed to be electric from the ground up.
Not really, battery tech hasn't moved on at all - at least not in a way we could describe as a 'new era'. Until solid state reaches mass production, the reality is that in order to give any EV a 200+ mile range, it has to be really heavy. It's not a question of evolution or r&d - it's just a basic fact, current batteries are far too heavy.Literally nothing has changed in weight terms when it comes to power storage since Tesla began. There have been tweaks, Tesla have changed the composition slightly to give a better performing car battery solution, but in the end the barrier still exists. It's weight Vs range and performance.
Edited by TheDeuce on Wednesday 11th September 23:55
RobDickinson said:
Roughly 7% energy density improvement a year should mean half the weight battery in 10 years time.
This has been a pretty solid constant last 20 years or so.
It has been, for well over 20 years actually. The problem is that Li-ion, like most new technologies, was fairly crude initially, and as demand for quantity and efficiency of cells has increased, it has been improved - easy to do when demand = plenty of cash to find improvements.This has been a pretty solid constant last 20 years or so.
Now though, despite more money than ever being poured in, the actual rate of improvement is relatively less than previously - the technology is effectively reaching it's potential and practical limitations. This has happened previously with other battery technologies, and each time as the limit is approached, a new technology has taken over and offered further scope for improvement. Right now, for the constant to remain, we kinda need solid state batteries that can be proven by design, and mass produced... So far, that hasn't happened. I'm sure various companies must be close, as the level of investment has seriously ramped up in the last few years and there have been working prototypes. It's very hard to guess when we might see anything usable though, the guys doing the R&D are in competition with one another so there isn't very much up to date info on progress made public.
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