Debunking some expected 'smart' comments

[Mr Gear]

rovermorris999 said:

McWigglebum4th said:

CO2 is one pollutant that comes out the back of a car

CO2 isn't a pollutant even though it is taxed as such. I breathe it every day and does me no harm and my garden would die without it..

If you breathed enough of it, you would die. If you don't believe me, try it!

Get a half-full bottle of fizzy water, breathe out deeply, put your lips over the open bottle, squeeze it and breathe in deeply... What fun!

And anyway, your definition of pollution is wrong. It is anything natural or otherwise that occurs in unnatural levels. E.g. Light pollution. Dust pollution. You can even have pollution caused by water.

[rovermorris999]

Mr Gear said:

If you breathed enough of it, you would die. If you don't believe me, try it!

Get a half-full bottle of fizzy water, breathe out deeply, put your lips over the open bottle, squeeze it and breathe in deeply... What fun!

And anyway, your definition of pollution is wrong. It is anything natural or otherwise that occurs in unnatural levels. E.g. Light pollution. Dust pollution. You can even have pollution caused by water.

400ppm isn't anywhere near 'unnatural' levels. Tomato growers use 2000ppm in greenhouses for better yields and the workers don't keel over. CO2 in the atmosphere has been way higher before and life flourished. But don't let facts get in the way of belief.
By your definition water is a pollutant as drinking too much can kill you. I think discussions like this are better on the climate threads.

Edited by rovermorris999 on Friday 14th February 08:01

[RossP]

ds666 said:

I know this isn't quite in the thread of environmental debunking but they are already starting to call me "Ernie " as in the Benny Hill song " he drove the fastest milk cart in the west " . (Probably never been heard of by the sub 40's on here ... ) .

Yes, my mates are calling me 'Ernie' too. Although Ernie actually had a horse drawn milk cart.

[Getragdogleg]

Better to not be dragged into the silly bickering in the first place.

Don't take a defensive position from the get go and you will have an easier time of it.

If you must rise to the bait the say something like I do when some muppet has a pop about my E-Bike, just say "I have 3 proper cars and 2 of them are V8s I like this though because it accelerates like its on fire".

I use the E-bike in the summer to get home and back, its perfect for that. I am considering an electric car but would never buy a mainstream one because the manufacturers seem to like to over style them and make them look a bit naff.

I plan on making an old Opel GT electric. two seater, light, perfect for a local hoon mobile.

[900T-R]

Greg_D said:

Anyway, my amended figure is 64g of CO2/km

I'd be interested to see a spreadsheet of 'well-wheel' for a typical 100g co2 city car taking into account all the transport, distillation, transport, storage, electricity used etc and compare it to a mine-wheel co2 figure including all transmission losses/battery charging losses etc for an EV

According to the research and surveys I'm aware of over the past 5-10 years, 100g/km CO2 tank-to-wheel translates to about 120-130g/km well-to-wheel for petrol and diesel fuels. Anything that deviates grossly from those figures has been found to make some rather weird and unfounded assumptions (something both 'sides' on the debate are rather apt at IME).

Of course, seeing as 100 g/km translates to 4.x l/100 km (petrol) or 3.x l/100km (diesel) - figures that are attained in the NEDC driving cycle but seldom if ever in actual operation - one could debate how realistic using that figure is, anyway. I'd wager to guess that actual tank-to-wheel CO2-emissions for a petrol- or diesel-fueled city car, operated by the average person, are far closer to 150 g/km.

The calculated CO2-figure I've seen for an i3 when operated from the Dutch grid is 72 g/km - which is close enough to your 64 g/km for a UK-based car.

Trouble is finding out how much of that reduction is due to the car being electric, given that it breaks new ground in several other aspects of its construction that could just as well be applied to other driveline arrangements. The diesel hybrid VW XL1, for instance, seems to be quite able to get near its headline 1l/100 km or 300 mpg figure in actual operation...

[Hackney]

I think the "moving pollution" argument is more a reaction to the evangelical arguments for electric cars.

Hearing someone espousing the benefits of zero pollution does mean people take that claim with a pinch of sale. It's not zero pollution because the cars have batteries which need to be charged; which uses electricity; which comes from power stations; which pollute.

The fact that the overall result is less pollution than a petrol powered car doing the same journey is lost.

Electric cars don't pollute is not true if you go back to source.
Electric cars pollute less per mile than petrol cars is true


NB when I say "pollute" I'm generalising, CO2 isn't a pollutant etc

[McWigglebum4th]

Hackney said:

I think the "moving pollution" argument is more a reaction to the evangelical arguments for electric cars.

Hearing someone espousing the benefits of zero pollution does mean people take that claim with a pinch of sale. It's not zero pollution because the cars have batteries which need to be charged; which uses electricity; which comes from power stations; which pollute.

The fact that the overall result is less pollution than a petrol powered car doing the same journey is lost.

Electric cars don't pollute is not true if you go back to source.
Electric cars pollute less per mile than petrol cars is true


NB when I say "pollute" I'm generalising, CO2 isn't a pollutant etc

Actually moving pollution is one of the advantages.

Spend a few days in london and then shove your finger up your nose

It will be black bogies.


So even if the amount of pollution is identical (it isn't) then you are dumping all the nasty stuff into the countryside where only a few people live.

[Snowboy]

Hi, I don't drive electric, I would have some questions for those who do. Not malicious, but asked with a degree of interest.
And not so much from an environmental perspective either.


Isn't the battery quite expensive to lease compared to the fuel of a small car?

Is the range limited, could you drive from Birmingham to Cornwall?

What about with lots of luggage?

How do you charge it if you have to park on the street, possibly not outside you house?

How much does it cost to charge?
What's the rough miles per £?

[mids]

Getragdogleg said:

Better to not be dragged into the silly bickering in the first place.

Yep agreed, I was back at my parents house over the weekend, they live 200 miles away in the North East so I was overseeing having a charging point installed. One of my Dad's friends turned up for a coffee and launched into the usual drivel about how bad EVs were for the environment and how it was all a con, blah blah blah. I quite enjoyed stopping him in his tracks by saying I didn't care about that and was buying it mainly for tax reasons and the fact that it was great to drive.

Truth be told the environment is something I do care about but I'm not going to argue about it with people like that. It is fun though to be able to kill that sort of ranting by explaining that there are plenty of other reasons for purchasing an EV.

[McWigglebum4th]

Snowboy said:

Hi, I don't drive electric, I would have some questions for those who do. Not malicious, but asked with a degree of interest.
And not so much from an environmental perspective either.


Isn't the battery quite expensive to lease compared to the fuel of a small car?

At the moment it works out about 2 to 3 tanks of petrol to lease the battery

Snowboy said:

Is the range limited, could you drive from Birmingham to Cornwall?

You could drive from birmingham to cornwall

Just not in one leap

Kryten just drove from london to Edinburgh in just over 13 hours including charging and faffage.

If you drive a long distance alot buy a diesel

Snowboy said:

What about with lots of luggage?

Put it in the boot like a normal car

Snowboy said:

How do you charge it if you have to park on the street, possibly not outside you house?

With great difficulty at the moment but beive it or not most people don't live in flats

If you do

Buy a petrol they aren't illegal

Snowboy said:

How much does it cost to charge?
What's the rough miles per £?

haven't a smegging clue

But electric cars are merely giving you another option on how your car is powered

I want one not because of tree hugging or penny pinching but because they are different and more convient to me then fossil fueled. The idea of having the car refueled every night while I sleep sounds wonderful. Add in the quiet in traffic and it is a win/win

[McWigglebum4th]

mids said:

Yep agreed, I was back at my parents house over the weekend, they live 200 miles away in the North East so I was overseeing having a charging point installed. One of my Dad's friends turned up for a coffee and launched into the usual drivel about how bad EVs were for the environment and how it was all a con, blah blah blah. I quite enjoyed stopping him in his tracks by saying I didn't care about that and was buying it mainly for tax reasons and the fact that it was great to drive.

Truth be told the environment is something I do care about but I'm not going to argue about it with people like that. It is fun though to be able to kill that sort of ranting by explaining that there are plenty of other reasons for purchasing an EV.

I think the best argument is you don't want to go to petrol stations to mingle with the stupid people would shut down any argument quiet quickly

[Greg_D]

Snowboy said:

Isn't the battery quite expensive to lease compared to the fuel of a small car?
£0 on an i3 to lease the battery, i believe it is different on a leaf
Is the range limited, could you drive from Birmingham to Cornwall?
the range is C.100m in normal driving, if there was a DC charger on the way, you could charge it up in half an hour on the way while you have a pee and a coffee, so yes, in that instance, you'd make it
What about with lots of luggage?
identical to any other car of the same size
How do you charge it if you have to park on the street, possibly not outside you house?
not easily at the moment, you may be able to run a lead but that has H+S repercussions if anyone trips
How much does it cost to charge?
at the average cost of 15p/kwh and assuming a total charge from flat, £3
What's the rough miles per £?
about 30 miles/£, three times betterthan even a small diesel supermini (60mpg, £6.27/gallon = 9.5 miles/£)

[Snowboy]

Interesting.
2 people answered my questions.
One in a very passive aggressive way and one quite nicely.

Just as a passing comment I think a fair number of electric car drivers are so ready for smartarse comments they don't deal well with genuine questions and end up being quite aggressive.
It can put people off wanting to chat further.


My question on luggage wasn't so much about size if the boot, but whether it decreases the range significantly?

The question about home charging wasn't just about flats there are many houses that don't have driveways or designated parking.

What's the score if you run out of power ?
Is there an AA thing that gives you a few rescues a year, is there some emergency battery pack?
I'm just thinking that I've been caught in some crazy tailbacks this year.
Or do electric cars use very little power when ticking over?


I'm very much under the impression that they aren't practical for long journeys.
And that they are more expensive that existing small cars for short journeys.

Now, I still think #1 is true. Not as bad as it used to be, but until I can go four hours or 200 miles without stopping I won't be happy.

By what about #2.
How cheap are they to run compared to a small petrol car?

[McWigglebum4th]

Snowboy said:

What's the score if you run out of power ?

In a petrol car and you run out of petrol = Well done you're a moron

In a electric car and you run out of power = Well done you're a moron

Snowboy said:

Is there an AA thing that gives you a few rescues a year, is there some emergency battery pack?
I'm just thinking that I've been caught in some crazy tailbacks this year.
Or do electric cars use very little power when ticking over?

They don't tick over they just sit there using almost no energy while stopped.

The only thing that eats power is the heater. On a fossil fueled car you get "free" heat due to the engine pissing energy out of numerous places


So in a warm daylight conditions i feel the driver would expire before the car

In the dark cold and rain then I wouldn't know how long they last

[Mr Gear]

rovermorris999 said:

But don't let facts get in the way of belief.

I think discussions like this are better on the climate threads.

I agree with these two statements.

[Hackney]

McWigglebum4th said:

Snowboy said:

How do you charge it if you have to park on the street, possibly not outside you house?

With great difficulty at the moment but beive it or not most people don't live in flats

If you do

Buy a petrol they aren't illegal

London Councils said:

Nearly half of all London households live in flats compared to just 14 per cent in England as a whole.

Source: http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/londonfacts/defau...

As cities like London are the key market for electric vehicles this is a very major issue, don't you think?

Edited by Hackney on Friday 14th February 14:07

[Snowboy]

McWigglebum4th said:

Snowboy said:

What's the score if you run out of power ?

In a petrol car and you run out of petrol = Well done you're a moron

In a electric car and you run out of power = Well done you're a moron

Well, by cropping my comment you've somewhat altered my question, and you've failed to answer it.

Assuming you fill up both the petrol and the electric car before the journey my question is around what happens in unexpected delays or diversions.
A petrol on a full tank can go 4-5 ours of stop start slow traffic, could an electric do that?
Or would it see the battery draining quickly?

A petrol car can be filled up in any number of garages around the country, but (I'm guessing) there aren't as many public charging points.

So, is it more likely you'll run out of power in an electric, have to seriously alter your journey?

Again, please bear in mind this is a friendly enquiry.
Abrupt and aggressive answers aren't necessary.

[McWigglebum4th]

Hackney said:

someone said:

Nearly half of all London households live in flats compared to just 14 per cent in England as a whole.

Source: http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/londonfacts/defau...

As cities like London are the key market for electric vehicles this is a very major issue, don't you think?

London is odd due to the congestion charge.

However beyond london lots of people live within range of the city center and have enough room to park.

We are pretty damn rural but we are only 24 miles from Aberdeen city center.


But i don't see why everyone thinks you can only use an EV within city limits they are far more suited to suburbia where cars journeys are often and short as there is bugger all within walking distance

[JonnyVTEC]

Hackney said:

Source: http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/londonfacts/defau...

As cities like London are the key market for electric vehicles this is a very major issue, don't you think?

Edited by Hackney on Friday 14th February 14:07

Even 10% EV sales would be a miracle, 50% being a problem just shows how large (and wrong) people are as to how soon EV are mainstream. How many of those houses has petrol station forecourts?

0? Well that's a 'major issue'.

[Greg_D]

i know what snowboy is saying about defensive answers. I'll try not to be defensive.

EVs at the moment are still very 'niche' in the true sense of the word. ie they have a set of strengths and weaknesses.

If you regularly do any of the following, at the moment an electric car will not be a practical proposition for you.
1) journeys over 100 miles
2) do not have designated parking adjacent to your property
3) have no financial mitigation strategy, ie. not co. car driver or business owner, (ie if you are a joe public buying the car with your own money)

but that said if the vehicle fits in with your needs, patterns and lifestyle it may very well be an excellent choice. That is the case with me. I have a 7 mile commute, rarely drive further than that and when i do i have the 'standard issue' middle englander derv 4x4 to take the strain. i have a garage and as a business owner the tax perks are numerous and compelling. It all adds up to a complete no brainer FOR ME YMMV
To directly compare an i3 to a diesel corsa or something is as facile as comparing a McLaren P1 with the likes of an MR2 (roughly similar size, but that's about it) so direct value comparisons are impossible,

For me, the executive Summary was that to get a brand new i3 worked out the same as putting £5k to my existing car - whilst still having the disposal value of my existing car to be realised (ie a nett free car)
and when you add in the mpg equivalent of something daft like 200mpg it would actually work out significantly cheaper than a corsa, for me...

HTH