Second hand zoes - the battery lease?
Discussion
teabelly said:
It's a stupid situation. It's like going to buy any other car and finding out you have to rent the gearbox separately!
Is it though; it isn't much different to adding fuel to your tank?The majority of new ZOE's sold are battery lease ones, it keeps the initial cost down to the tune of £5k.
Battery lease is a minimum of £45 a month which is £540 a year. That buys over 100 gallons of fuel. To do those 3000 miles in an EV assuming £2 per 100 miles then that's another £60 on top. Your average 50 mpg petrol car will take you 5000 miles and leave you the £60 for either road tax or to add to extra servicing costs. Plus if you go over your lease mileage how much more do nissan or renault sting you on top?
One year contract is a ridiculous £780 for that same 3000 miles.
Unless you have an EV to avoid the london congestion charge I can't see how they save money with battery lease rates that are this expensive. If a normal boggo petrol is cheaper to run then I think nissan/renault have miscalculated.
One year contract is a ridiculous £780 for that same 3000 miles.
Unless you have an EV to avoid the london congestion charge I can't see how they save money with battery lease rates that are this expensive. If a normal boggo petrol is cheaper to run then I think nissan/renault have miscalculated.
Looking at the other thread then a 14 month old zoe is only valued at £6500 by Renault themselves. So not only do you have high costs of ownership with a battery lease you also have very high depreciation on the car itself.
Is there a difference in residuals between the leaf and the leaf flex I wonder? If the latter are worth a much smaller percentage of the initial price then it does suggest the whole battery lease thing is the reason the market won't pay much for these second hand.
Is there a difference in residuals between the leaf and the leaf flex I wonder? If the latter are worth a much smaller percentage of the initial price then it does suggest the whole battery lease thing is the reason the market won't pay much for these second hand.
I've not done any scientific study, so take that for what you will, but my experience has been as follows. Usually see an advert from the bar on PH scrolling across the bottom of the screen which picks up on your searches. Currently it's V8 Defenders as it happens. 
Anyway when spotting a Leaf at a price that prepared to pay, in the spec and colour, check out the ad on PH, Auto trader and the dealer website. If no mention of Flex and all looks promising then a quick email to dealer asking any questions not clear from the ads. Without exception it comes back as yes it's a Flex.
Shrugs, no sale, and not likely to be. Nissan and Renault have to fix this situation or prices will plummet even more.
Anyway when spotting a Leaf at a price that prepared to pay, in the spec and colour, check out the ad on PH, Auto trader and the dealer website. If no mention of Flex and all looks promising then a quick email to dealer asking any questions not clear from the ads. Without exception it comes back as yes it's a Flex.
Shrugs, no sale, and not likely to be. Nissan and Renault have to fix this situation or prices will plummet even more.
Whatever price the non battery lease vehicles sell for sell the lease cars with lease settled for the same age/spec/mileage of vehicle. It's a no brainer to me. That's the market value. You cannot sell a car for more than a free market wants to pay. Or it will sit there and won't sell.
I also wonder what effect on the batteries there is from having these EVs sat about on forecourts for months? Do dealerships make much effort to keep the batteries in good health? With normal cars they will just chuck the old battery and put a new one on for the customer as they know sitting around a forecourt with the battery draining isn't going to do a normal car battery any good.
I also wonder what effect on the batteries there is from having these EVs sat about on forecourts for months? Do dealerships make much effort to keep the batteries in good health? With normal cars they will just chuck the old battery and put a new one on for the customer as they know sitting around a forecourt with the battery draining isn't going to do a normal car battery any good.
teabelly said:
Battery lease is a minimum of £45 a month which is £540 a year. That buys over 100 gallons of fuel. To do those 3000 miles in an EV assuming £2 per 100 miles then that's another £60 on top. Your average 50 mpg petrol car will take you 5000 miles and leave you the £60 for either road tax or to add to extra servicing costs. Plus if you go over your lease mileage how much more do nissan or renault sting you on top?
One year contract is a ridiculous £780 for that same 3000 miles.
Unless you have an EV to avoid the london congestion charge I can't see how they save money with battery lease rates that are this expensive. If a normal boggo petrol is cheaper to run then I think nissan/renault have miscalculated.
So for 10k miles.One year contract is a ridiculous £780 for that same 3000 miles.
Unless you have an EV to avoid the london congestion charge I can't see how they save money with battery lease rates that are this expensive. If a normal boggo petrol is cheaper to run then I think nissan/renault have miscalculated.
Car @ 50mpg, 200 gallons, £1 a litre, £910, P/A.
Zoe @ 6p per kwh, 90 miles per 22kwh, £45 a month lease, £700, P/A.
Not just the delta in price for us though, car's quirky compared to other Eco boxes.
lukefreeman said:
So for 10k miles.
Car @ 50mpg, 200 gallons, £1 a litre, £910, P/A.
Zoe @ 6p per kwh, 90 miles per 22kwh, £45 a month lease, £700, P/A.
Not just the delta in price for us though, car's quirky compared to other Eco boxes.
£45 a month lease assumes a 3 year commitment and 3000 miles. If you want to do 10,000 pa then it's £85 a month for 3 years or £1020. If you can only commit annually then it's £105 a month or £1260 pa plus cost of electricity of £145 ish.Car @ 50mpg, 200 gallons, £1 a litre, £910, P/A.
Zoe @ 6p per kwh, 90 miles per 22kwh, £45 a month lease, £700, P/A.
Not just the delta in price for us though, car's quirky compared to other Eco boxes.
EVs make sense at higher mileages which is irritating as I want one for the opposite use. Short local trips that aren't suited to petrol or diesel cars but the battery lease means they're totally uneconomic for that.
teabelly said:
Never realised the twingo was RWD! Might have to consider that, especially the turbo version.
Anyone know what the autos are like for reliability?
If you are talking about Twingo auto; they have only just been launched with the first cars arriving in April, however the gearbox is similar to the dual clutch gearbox that is offered on Megane and Scenic and they appear to be trouble free.Anyone know what the autos are like for reliability?
FiF said:
Just seen that other thread. 
Perhaps that explains why dealers are so keen to hang onto anyone that looks even 10% interested in the used EV market.
Your point about battery care while sitting in the lot is a good one.
What other thread???Perhaps that explains why dealers are so keen to hang onto anyone that looks even 10% interested in the used EV market.
Your point about battery care while sitting in the lot is a good one.
Our ZOE lease ends this december after 2 years. It's been, and still it, a fantastic car for short trips around town and we would like to keep it really. But, with the battery lease they just don't add up, at any price really (within reason) so it'll be going back and we'll see if there's similar deals for a new ZOE/Leaf or just get a small capacity petrol to replace it. It was goood while it lasted if nothing else.
RE the Twingo. Although RWD they seem to be very much tuned toward understeer and offer you zero chance to get the back end out due to traction control that can't be switched off. That's what I remember from a video review I've seen somewhere anyway.
dave_s13 said:
What other thread???
Our ZOE lease ends this december after 2 years. It's been, and still it, a fantastic car for short trips around town and we would like to keep it really. But, with the battery lease they just don't add up, at any price really (within reason) so it'll be going back and we'll see if there's similar deals for a new ZOE/Leaf or just get a small capacity petrol to replace it. It was goood while it lasted if nothing else.
RE the Twingo. Although RWD they seem to be very much tuned toward understeer and offer you zero chance to get the back end out due to traction control that can't be switched off. That's what I remember from a video review I've seen somewhere anyway.
Zoe early termination.Our ZOE lease ends this december after 2 years. It's been, and still it, a fantastic car for short trips around town and we would like to keep it really. But, with the battery lease they just don't add up, at any price really (within reason) so it'll be going back and we'll see if there's similar deals for a new ZOE/Leaf or just get a small capacity petrol to replace it. It was goood while it lasted if nothing else.
RE the Twingo. Although RWD they seem to be very much tuned toward understeer and offer you zero chance to get the back end out due to traction control that can't be switched off. That's what I remember from a video review I've seen somewhere anyway.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I'm in the process of changing from my Zoe to an i3 REX. I bought the Zoe (dynamique intens with metallic paint and standard alloys) and paid circa 11k after the govt discount in March 2014. So nearly 2 yrs and 6k of Central London commuting later, the trade-in bid was 3k. Renault dealers were not intererested (there are 68 for sale on auto trader) and the cheapest retail offer is 6200, also on auto trader for a private sale car. I've sold it privately. So that sounds amazingly cheap for a 2yr old car. But another way of looking at it is it has cost me 8k (or 10k inc £60 a month battery). Compare that though to the i3 Rex I am buying. List circa 35k, I am paying 20k 2 yrs later and 3.5k miles on the clock. % comparisons are all well and good but at the end of the day it's what flys out of my wallet that I care about.
As mentioned above, the issue for second hand prices of cars with battery leases is that the lease adds a fixed cost to the monthly cost of running the car. I think another way of looking at this is 'for the price of the lease how much extra could I borrow on a car lease?.'
Playing around with a calculator for here in CH with 4.5% interest rate and the same depreciation in percentage terms (32% residual value after 3 years) and the same deposit I worked out that £85 a month in lease was worth equivalent to £5,500 larger lease value.
So if we compare two cars, one with a paid battery and one with a leased then, for example, a £20,000 car with purchased battery and £14,500 car with a leased battery would cost the same each month (assuming other costs the same).
If, after 2 years the car with the owned battery was worth £10,000 then leased-battery car would need to be £4,500 to be equivalent cost per month. The car with the bought battery has lost 50% and the value of the car with the leased battery has lost 69%. This is just so the monthly costs are equivalent.
If our cars did lose 70% after 3 years then the car with the leased value would only be worth £500 for the two cars to cost the same on a monthly basis.
As I mentioned on another thread, our 2 year old i3 BEV cost the same in monthly cost as a 2 year old Zoe.
Playing around with a calculator for here in CH with 4.5% interest rate and the same depreciation in percentage terms (32% residual value after 3 years) and the same deposit I worked out that £85 a month in lease was worth equivalent to £5,500 larger lease value.
So if we compare two cars, one with a paid battery and one with a leased then, for example, a £20,000 car with purchased battery and £14,500 car with a leased battery would cost the same each month (assuming other costs the same).
If, after 2 years the car with the owned battery was worth £10,000 then leased-battery car would need to be £4,500 to be equivalent cost per month. The car with the bought battery has lost 50% and the value of the car with the leased battery has lost 69%. This is just so the monthly costs are equivalent.
If our cars did lose 70% after 3 years then the car with the leased value would only be worth £500 for the two cars to cost the same on a monthly basis.
As I mentioned on another thread, our 2 year old i3 BEV cost the same in monthly cost as a 2 year old Zoe.
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