First experience of 'range anxiety'!
Discussion
I had my first experience of range anxiety on day 1 of EV ownership this week. I picked the car up from the dealer, took it 40 km home, put it on charge on the electricity socket. After a few hours I drove 35km along the motorway for a meeting. By this stage the weather had turned from rain to snow. Parked it up with 80km left on the range.
After a few hours came back to the car to find it was showing 65 km. I guess leaving it out in the cold had reduced the range. Put it in Eco Pro and drove back at about 105 kmh instead of 120. On arriving at home I had to immediately take my son to Water Polo training in one direction and then pick up my daughter from childcare in the other. It was getting close.
Left the car outside the childcare with 8km range. Got back in a few minutes later with it showing 5km and a 5.6km journey back. Drove like an absolute nun on eco pro + and taking a short cut down a non-tarmaced road and got back with 2km range.
Looking back lots of new-owner mistakes on a day with unusually high mileage. The i-specialist reckoned I wouldn't need a wallbox but have decided he was wrong. Here in Switzerland Tesla say a wall box is unnecessary as our homes have 400 volt 3 phase supply which can fill a Tesla in a few hours. However the BMW can't deal with this so we have to use 1 phase. For an overnight charge on off-peak this is OK but for the times I need a mid-day boost a wall box would be useful.
After a few hours came back to the car to find it was showing 65 km. I guess leaving it out in the cold had reduced the range. Put it in Eco Pro and drove back at about 105 kmh instead of 120. On arriving at home I had to immediately take my son to Water Polo training in one direction and then pick up my daughter from childcare in the other. It was getting close.
Left the car outside the childcare with 8km range. Got back in a few minutes later with it showing 5km and a 5.6km journey back. Drove like an absolute nun on eco pro + and taking a short cut down a non-tarmaced road and got back with 2km range.
Looking back lots of new-owner mistakes on a day with unusually high mileage. The i-specialist reckoned I wouldn't need a wallbox but have decided he was wrong. Here in Switzerland Tesla say a wall box is unnecessary as our homes have 400 volt 3 phase supply which can fill a Tesla in a few hours. However the BMW can't deal with this so we have to use 1 phase. For an overnight charge on off-peak this is OK but for the times I need a mid-day boost a wall box would be useful.
Mike_C said:
Well, I had my first proper experience of “Range Anxiety” this weekend! We went up to Scotland for some snowboarding, and the car (Tesla Model S) had performed faultlessly throughout, and charging all the way there and whilst there and been a doddle.
However, on the way home the weather was pretty poor; heavy rain with standing water, around 2’C, at night and with a 20mph headwind. This is pretty much worst case range-wise; the cold weather reduces battery range, being at night and in the rain requires both lights and wipers, and of course both a strong headwind and standing water increase drag substantially. Add to that 3x motorway closures and the resulting diversions, and everything was working against us.
So we set off from Gretna Green Supercharger with around 220 miles of charge, aiming for Stoke Supercharger (Keele Services) 160 miles away. So we had 60 miles in hand. Soon it became apparent this was not enough, as the car advised to drive at 65mph, and then 60mph, to reach our destination. Realising this was cutting it a bit too fine, we then diverted to the more-northerly Warrington Supercharger, 136 miles away. Long story short, driving ultra-conservatively (64mph), no heated seats on, minimal air-con (heating) to stop the car misting up and even turning the headlights off so DRL-only on the lit sections of motorway, we eventually made it to Warrington with 6% (14 miles) battery range remaining! Needless to say, we were very relieved to get there!!
I don’t blame the car particularly, a combination of weather/road conditions and diversions were bound to reduce the range beyond the ‘Typical’ figure given. However, what I do question is how ‘typical’ this figure is? It strikes me that the range figure given as ‘typical’ is more likely ‘ideal’ in reality, and any deviation from those ideal parameters, be that speed, weather or road conditions can have a pretty dramatic impact on actual range!
Anyone else had a similar experience?!
Having owned TVRs for over 20 years I would just add that your story is near identical to most road trips I've ever been on, with the only exception that your fuel guage would appear to be more accurate which clearly removed a large chunk of the fun. However, on the way home the weather was pretty poor; heavy rain with standing water, around 2’C, at night and with a 20mph headwind. This is pretty much worst case range-wise; the cold weather reduces battery range, being at night and in the rain requires both lights and wipers, and of course both a strong headwind and standing water increase drag substantially. Add to that 3x motorway closures and the resulting diversions, and everything was working against us.
So we set off from Gretna Green Supercharger with around 220 miles of charge, aiming for Stoke Supercharger (Keele Services) 160 miles away. So we had 60 miles in hand. Soon it became apparent this was not enough, as the car advised to drive at 65mph, and then 60mph, to reach our destination. Realising this was cutting it a bit too fine, we then diverted to the more-northerly Warrington Supercharger, 136 miles away. Long story short, driving ultra-conservatively (64mph), no heated seats on, minimal air-con (heating) to stop the car misting up and even turning the headlights off so DRL-only on the lit sections of motorway, we eventually made it to Warrington with 6% (14 miles) battery range remaining! Needless to say, we were very relieved to get there!!
I don’t blame the car particularly, a combination of weather/road conditions and diversions were bound to reduce the range beyond the ‘Typical’ figure given. However, what I do question is how ‘typical’ this figure is? It strikes me that the range figure given as ‘typical’ is more likely ‘ideal’ in reality, and any deviation from those ideal parameters, be that speed, weather or road conditions can have a pretty dramatic impact on actual range!
Anyone else had a similar experience?!
Never been in a Tesla myself, but had "range anxiety" in a mates Leaf. By the time he'd managed to get it recharged the range was something like 1 mile.
The conditions weren't quite as bad as the op described, but at points it was silly as the windows were misting up quite badly and it was starting to get dark.
Was thinking of getting an EV, but after that ahm ooot!
The conditions weren't quite as bad as the op described, but at points it was silly as the windows were misting up quite badly and it was starting to get dark.
Was thinking of getting an EV, but after that ahm ooot!
To clarify a few concerns that have been raised:
- Yes the front and rear lights remain on in this condition. Some further research has indicated that the headlights actually draw very little current, so won't be bothering with that again, should I find myself in a similar situation! But we were not driving in a dangerous condition.
- Yes we could have used another third party charger as I said, but we wanted to stick to the Tesla network and see what was achievable. If it really had got to a dire situation there was an Ecotricity charger about 5 miles further up the motorway (closer to us) we would have pulled into had we not been able to make it, as it turned out 6% (14 miles) was plenty to get there...but when you're over 100 miles away it doesn't feel like plenty!!
- We could have left Gretna Green with more charge than we did, the surprise/concern for us was that we thought we had plenty of charge, but it got used up a lot quicker than anticipated in those specific condition.
HOWEVER, between myself and my mate (who also has a Model S) we've collectively covered over 20,000 miles and this is the first time either of us has experienced range anxiety in either of our vehicles. That is VERY impressive in my book, given where EV's were 5 years ago. I have also experienced range anxiety in ICE cars, for instance finding a garage in the middle of Morocco that only stocked diesel - not much good for a V8 petrol Range Rover!!
Ultimately I don't want people to read this thread and get the impression that EV's are not a realistic option. For ~90% of people (I estimate, based on people I know/work with/etc.), an EV would be a perfectly usable vehicle in day to day life. And for the other 10% I am sure they could do, if willing to make certain adaptations or can wait for the charging network to expand. Just imagine how much more pleasant towns, cities, even sitting in traffic would be with no fumes coming out of the car in front! Lovely.
So yes, it's an expensive car, and yes the fuel saving does not really make up for the initial outlay (on a Tesla, at least), but put it this way - I was spending up to £400/month on diesel doing some fairly decent mileage. Now imagine you also finance a car, at say £250/month (not unreasonable). You could finance a Tesla with a half decent spec. for £650-£700/month, pay next to nothing for electricity and be doing the environment a favour. That, to me, makes a lot of sense!
- Yes the front and rear lights remain on in this condition. Some further research has indicated that the headlights actually draw very little current, so won't be bothering with that again, should I find myself in a similar situation! But we were not driving in a dangerous condition.
- Yes we could have used another third party charger as I said, but we wanted to stick to the Tesla network and see what was achievable. If it really had got to a dire situation there was an Ecotricity charger about 5 miles further up the motorway (closer to us) we would have pulled into had we not been able to make it, as it turned out 6% (14 miles) was plenty to get there...but when you're over 100 miles away it doesn't feel like plenty!!
- We could have left Gretna Green with more charge than we did, the surprise/concern for us was that we thought we had plenty of charge, but it got used up a lot quicker than anticipated in those specific condition.
HOWEVER, between myself and my mate (who also has a Model S) we've collectively covered over 20,000 miles and this is the first time either of us has experienced range anxiety in either of our vehicles. That is VERY impressive in my book, given where EV's were 5 years ago. I have also experienced range anxiety in ICE cars, for instance finding a garage in the middle of Morocco that only stocked diesel - not much good for a V8 petrol Range Rover!!
Ultimately I don't want people to read this thread and get the impression that EV's are not a realistic option. For ~90% of people (I estimate, based on people I know/work with/etc.), an EV would be a perfectly usable vehicle in day to day life. And for the other 10% I am sure they could do, if willing to make certain adaptations or can wait for the charging network to expand. Just imagine how much more pleasant towns, cities, even sitting in traffic would be with no fumes coming out of the car in front! Lovely.
So yes, it's an expensive car, and yes the fuel saving does not really make up for the initial outlay (on a Tesla, at least), but put it this way - I was spending up to £400/month on diesel doing some fairly decent mileage. Now imagine you also finance a car, at say £250/month (not unreasonable). You could finance a Tesla with a half decent spec. for £650-£700/month, pay next to nothing for electricity and be doing the environment a favour. That, to me, makes a lot of sense!
DonkeyApple said:
Having owned TVRs for over 20 years I would just add that your story is near identical to most road trips I've ever been on, with the only exception that your fuel gauge would appear to be more accurate which clearly removed a large chunk of the fun.
DonkeyApple, long time no see! Still doing that RRC build, or is that finished and sold already?! Mike_C said:
DonkeyApple, long time no see! Still doing that RRC build, or is that finished and sold already?!
Hi Mike. Still got it. It's been a somewhat drawn out project to say the least!! Took me a couple of years to settle on the final spec and then it dawned on me that a 2 door was going to be a pain for manhandling toddlers so I bought an interim 4 door. Then I bought an interim 2 door In Vogue as it had some rare parts I needed to refabricate, ran that for a year or so and proved it would be a pain moving small children in and out. That is now up for sale with Graham and I have accumulated all the parts required to commence the build of the original 2 door!!!!!! If everything goes well I'm hoping to have it in the road and the interim 4 door up for sale ahead of this Christmas. So, in short, yes, no, no.
DonkeyApple said:
If everything goes well I'm hoping to have it in the road and the interim 4 door up for sale ahead of this Christmas.
Glad it's all progressing! Is there a build thread somewhere?! I know I shouldn't ask, but I'm weak...how much would you want for the 4-door, and what spec is it?? y2blade said:
......Yet some still say EVs lack excitement.
This all sounds very exciting to me.
It is/was! This all sounds very exciting to me.
;)Mike_C said:
And for the other 10% I am sure they could do
You've hit the nail on the head, they aren't suitable for the 10% of journeys that matter.Until they are 100% suitable the normal motorist won't buy one.
They'll continue to be the reserve of geeks and early adopters who have the time to research and plan charging routes. Not to mention getting to the charger and finding it out of service or in use.
For the normal family motorist planning a seven hour drive down to Cornwall (or similar) they are simply a non-starter.
A petrol/diesel engined car will not care a jot if you've got the AC, headlights or wipers on. For me that is a choice I must have at all times, regardless of weather or time of day.
ORD said:
I am always surprised at the delays that people will put up with. When someone says "20 min charge here" and "30 min charge there", I stop reading. I would never tolerate that kind of delay in a journey.
how far do you drive between 'breaks' anyway ? 20-30minutes break every 2 hours is similar to the break regime required under EU tacho rules (45 mins in 4 hours) ...
ORD said:
I am always surprised at the delays that people will put up with. When someone says "20 min charge here" and "30 min charge there", I stop reading. I would never tolerate that kind of delay in a journey.
Depends on the journey! I drove from the Midlands to Glasgow last weekend, left at 8am and was at Glasgow airport by 3pm; that's 7 hours to cover 330 miles, an average speed of just shy of 50mph, including 3 short charging stops. OK, you could do it in 5.5 hours non-stop in an ICE vehicle perhaps, but personally I like to stop for lunch and could do with a piss every 3 hours anyway. And how often do you do a 300+ mile journey anyway?In day to day use, the car is no different to driving an ICE for me, other than it's not spewing out toxic fumes, it's largely free miles, and I wake up with a full 'tank' every morning. Oh, and it's faster than pretty much every other ICE vehicle this side of a supercar...
Mike_C said:
In day to day use, the car is no different to driving an ICE for me, other than it's not spewing out toxic fumes, it's largely free miles, and I wake up with a full 'tank' every morning. Oh, and it's faster than pretty much every other ICE vehicle this side of a supercar...
lol at the irony of the "It's not spewing out toxic fumes" comment good old greenies............ Mike_C said:
DonkeyApple said:
If everything goes well I'm hoping to have it in the road and the interim 4 door up for sale ahead of this Christmas.
Glad it's all progressing! Is there a build thread somewhere?! I know I shouldn't ask, but I'm weak...how much would you want for the 4-door, and what spec is it?? Gives an idea as to how long I've been faffing about!!!
The 4 door is a 1989, grey cloth. It's the most solid one I've ever seen and the market for an example that isn't as good is north of £12k at present: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Zoon said:
(Stuff)
They'll continue to be the reserve of geeks and early adopters...
(Stuff)
For the normal family motorist planning a seven hour drive down to Cornwall (or similar) they are simply a non-starter.
There are plenty of people driving round in them that don't fit into that category at all - including old people who probably can't turn a computer on. They'll continue to be the reserve of geeks and early adopters...
(Stuff)
For the normal family motorist planning a seven hour drive down to Cornwall (or similar) they are simply a non-starter.
I
And my Aston wouldn't have suited a normal family either..
If it's not right for you then that's fine, and balanced argument on the pros and cons is healthy. I do have a problem with people (not really you) that seem to troll on here saying there's no place for them as the range and infrastructure isn't ready yet.
y2blade said:
lol at the irony of the "It's not spewing out toxic fumes" comment good old greenies............
Well it's not, is it? And OK, you can use the electricity generation argument, but once I've transferred my mains supply at home to Ecotricity (http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/for-your-home/britain-s-greenest-energy) then the electricity I am using will be as green as possible too. good old greenies............ Of course, then everyone chunters on about battery production, but that never concerned people when they buy a laptop or smartphone, and there's many millions more of them than there are EV cars, and they're far more 'disposable' too, so that's a bit of a moot point. Producing an ICE is hardly emissions free, anyway!
Mike_C said:
Ultimately I don't want people to read this thread and get the impression that EV's are not a realistic option. For ~90% of people (I estimate, based on people I know/work with/etc.), an EV would be a perfectly usable vehicle in day to day life. And for the other 10% I am sure they could do, if willing to make certain adaptations or can wait for the charging network to expand. Just imagine how much more pleasant towns, cities, even sitting in traffic would be with no fumes coming out of the car in front! Lovely.
So yes, it's an expensive car, and yes the fuel saving does not really make up for the initial outlay (on a Tesla, at least), but put it this way - I was spending up to £400/month on diesel doing some fairly decent mileage. Now imagine you also finance a car, at say £250/month (not unreasonable). You could finance a Tesla with a half decent spec. for £650-£700/month, pay next to nothing for electricity and be doing the environment a favour. That, to me, makes a lot of sense!
Some of this is the mentality of wanting one car to cover all use cases. For us, the only part of our needs that a Tesla didn't meet was the need to go off road. I personally don't think it's unreasonable to stop for 20 mins every 3 hours of driving. Certainly I know my children need a run around after sitting still for this time. The only trips where this would have impacted us have been long night drives where the children are asleep and my wife & I take turns. These instances are for me an edge-case.So yes, it's an expensive car, and yes the fuel saving does not really make up for the initial outlay (on a Tesla, at least), but put it this way - I was spending up to £400/month on diesel doing some fairly decent mileage. Now imagine you also finance a car, at say £250/month (not unreasonable). You could finance a Tesla with a half decent spec. for £650-£700/month, pay next to nothing for electricity and be doing the environment a favour. That, to me, makes a lot of sense!
In the end we took this thinking one step further and realised that 80% of our driving was on short drives. We therefore bought a smaller EV for these cases. We've at the moment kept our ICE for the other 20%. The total cost of running the EV + ICE was the same as running just the ICE, yet we get two cars instead of one. The ICE is for off road and long trips. I'm expecting the tech to change quickly over the coming 3-5 years and therefore decided to hold off on a big EV purchase.
The issue with EVs at the moment is the infrastructure. Tesla are the best because they've invested in their Superchargers. The CCS standard allows for faster recharge (150KW) than Tesla is currently using. My view on the infrastructure is that it will come, pretty quickly. It's a lot cheaper to put in a fast charger than a petrol station. It just needs proper incentives to encourage people to invest (i.e. proper charging not grants).
The next standard that is being discussed by the CCS standards group (major German manufacturers plus a few others) is 350Kw charging. That would provide charging times pretty much equivalent to filling with petrol / diesel. We'll see CCS cars which can take 150Kw coming out later this year (Audi, possibly others) and I suspect 350Kw charging within 5 years.
As mentioned above, if you've ever driven in a place where the petrol infrastructure isn't there you realise range anxiety isn't just for EVs. We just take always-close infrastructure for granted.
lost in espace said:
And this is the reason why the Zoe doesn't go far from home now. Try 60 miles of range. Good local car though.
Did my first longish range journey in the Zoe at the weekend, had to go to an event 120 miles away, decided to stay over night about 80 miles away to save an early start on saturday morning. Left home at 16:45 with about 80-85% charge. heavy traffic for the first few miles then motorway to the first charger. Plugged in for about 40 minutes grabbed a bite to eat back up to 80% charge then headed off to the next charger about 25 miles away. Charge for a bit then head to destination. Finally arrive 8p.m.Next morning charge to 90%, set the useless sat nav for the 40 mile trip and it takes me across every back road in the county and I arrive with 6 miles left.
Wife charges to 100% set the sat nav to take us back to our overnight stay and it takes us back a completely different route?
Sunday my wife and I leave at the same time, I stop off to charge she heads on in her aygo. Before i reach my next charging point she's 10 miles from home, useless sat nav doesn't list the charger even though it found it on the way there so i'm relying on my memory and hoping i don't miss the turn off, charge again head to next charger, sat nav finds it but because it thinks it's 20 feet away from it's actual location doesn't register that i've arrived there so it keeps trying to divert me off route. Eventually arrive home 2 hours after the wife.
At least it was cheap journey.
chandrew said:
Some of this is the mentality of wanting one car to cover all use cases...
Very well put, and similar reasoning to myself. We still have an ICE, although we went the other way and have the Tesla for most of our journeys (and all long trips) and a little Audi for shorter trips, running round and the missus' commute. My commute is 85 miles each way a couple of times a week, so the cost saving for running the Tesla over an ICE is significant, although not my main reason for purchase.I still have motorbikes for fun at the weekend too, so I'm not an all-out EV greenie, far from it. My theory is this: the sooner everyone who can drive an EV does, the better the infrastructure will be for charging, the greater the drive for reneweable energy generation (which can be done, see Norway as a case in point), the better our environment will be and ultimately the longer fossil fuels will last to keep my beloved V8's and motorbikes running too
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