So, EV performance cars are coming soon, right?
Discussion
ZesPak said:
SWoll said:
If anything the A4 is still small inside when compared to the Model 3, let alone the S.
I do wonder whether people even look any of this stuff up before posting, or have even seen a Model S in the flesh. They're massive, slightly longer than a 5 series Touring in fact.
I thought length was near as makes no difference 5m in all. (edit: looked it up, less than 2cm in it)I do wonder whether people even look any of this stuff up before posting, or have even seen a Model S in the flesh. They're massive, slightly longer than a 5 series Touring in fact.
Coming from an XF estate, and even an E-class estate, the Model S is just huge inside.
Edited by ZesPak on Wednesday 6th October 14:53
The Model 3 feels every bit as big inside as previous 5 series/A6/E-Class we've had. The benefits of a ground up EV of course.
Spidersleg said:
Surely part of the fun is hearing the engine and/or exhaust whilst going up or down through the gears. No electric car is going to have that, so there goes 50% of the fun.
I think everyone will have their own view on what % that makes up, bit will say after 2 years in a Tesla I'm really missing a good ICE powertrain for special occasions.SeeNoWeevil said:
EV Nissan 400Z? Electric Supra? Type-R with err.. EV-TEC? Anything with 2 seats and a sub 60K sticker price that isn't going to put me to sleep?? If I'm willing to give up my beloved ICE, I'm gonna need more than this battery powered snoozefest. Someone please tell me there's fun stuff coming I'm not aware of.
Not really. Most are looking at 2025/2026 type of timeframe. And the reason for that is that EV technology simply doesn't suit sports cars or having fun. I don't know if that will actually change by 2025 or if we will just be bombarded with marketing to believe that's the case or if all alternatives will have disappeared or something. As I'm sure you're aware, EVs are best suited to cars that already heavy and more luxury oriented. Tesla obviously figured this out before anyone else and they have successfully defined what an EV is. I do incidentally think that a reason for the lack of engagement with an EV is the skateboard design that everyone generally praises. There is no weight shift in an EV because it's all in the floor. But if you think about it, we all actually like weight shifts in a sports car. A front-engined rwd drive car has a certain characteristic, a mid-engine car another way of doing things, and a rear engined car another again. The reason they're interesting to drive is that you have to learn how to manage those characteristics and when you do dial it in and you get that perfect rotation in a corner it's a beautiful thing. There are basically flaws with sports cars that make them interesting. The need to change gears, the need to trail brake, the need to manage power oversteer, the need to keep the engine on boil at the right time, the need to heel and toe to not upset the weight transfer etc. If it's just a heavy blob like an EV there is actually not a whole lot to do, plus of course they're full of torque vectoring to solve most of the problems anyhow.
I notice that the likes of Lotus and Porsche are looking at taking a more mid-engined type of approach with the battery behind the driver and the driver sitting down low, so there might still be some hope. Another reason for doing this is to make the car low, which is virtually impossible with the skateboard design.
DMZ said:
And the reason for that is that EV technology simply doesn't suit sports cars or having fun.
The only reason I could think of is that it's just too good? So there's a need to make it more flawed.I think plenty of EV's are loads of fun.
DMZ said:
EVs are best suited to cars that already heavy and more luxury oriented. Tesla obviously figured this out before anyone else and they have successfully defined what an EV is.
Is that why they started off converting the pinnacle of heavy luxury? 
new Car magazine arrived yesterday with a lot of this.
https://twitter.com/TimPollardCars/status/14454582...
Quite a few articles around it in recent days too - https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsch...
Porsche won't be electrifying any current platforms but the future ones are geared around it. Key thing is packaging batteries - they tend to be under seats at the moment or full skateboard, which puts driver/passenger too high for sports cars. Will probably be more like a TVR chassis, batteries down the middle, motor at one or both ends, occupants either side to keep them as low as possible. Package the rest of the batteries to get the weight where you want it. What will be fascinating is the balance of battery capacity vs weight - will people take a lightweight 150 mile version or take a hefty weight hit for 300+?
https://twitter.com/TimPollardCars/status/14454582...
Quite a few articles around it in recent days too - https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsch...
Porsche won't be electrifying any current platforms but the future ones are geared around it. Key thing is packaging batteries - they tend to be under seats at the moment or full skateboard, which puts driver/passenger too high for sports cars. Will probably be more like a TVR chassis, batteries down the middle, motor at one or both ends, occupants either side to keep them as low as possible. Package the rest of the batteries to get the weight where you want it. What will be fascinating is the balance of battery capacity vs weight - will people take a lightweight 150 mile version or take a hefty weight hit for 300+?
drdel said:
The basic laws of physics and chemistry means you cannot get out more than a proportion of what you put in.
Very easy to up the power of an electric motor but you'll need to charge more frequently and/or for longer.
Can you point to these laws? These seem awfully arbitrary? Very easy to up the power of an electric motor but you'll need to charge more frequently and/or for longer.
sjg said:
Package the rest of the batteries to get the weight where you want it. What will be fascinating is the balance of battery capacity vs weight - will people take a lightweight 150 mile version or take a hefty weight hit for 300+?
The answer to that -especially in the case of porsche- has been given very often. Given the choice between auto and manual, what do they buy?
4wd or rwd?
Race suspension or comfort?
No soundproofing or soundproof?
The vast majority buys the complete opposite what most PHers are demanding. Good thing porsche makes enough of them to make interesting cars in between.
Jason Cammisa did a great video on this recently:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOCTtKBIHKc&ab...
Jason said:
The 911 is increasingly stuck between the brands' promise of a pure sports car and the economic reality of it needing to appeal to the old men who have money to pay for them. And those old men, they want luxury cars.
Edited by ZesPak on Wednesday 6th October 15:54
sjg said:
new Car magazine arrived yesterday with a lot of this.
https://twitter.com/TimPollardCars/status/14454582...
Quite a few articles around it in recent days too - https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsch...
Porsche won't be electrifying any current platforms but the future ones are geared around it. Key thing is packaging batteries - they tend to be under seats at the moment or full skateboard, which puts driver/passenger too high for sports cars. Will probably be more like a TVR chassis, batteries down the middle, motor at one or both ends, occupants either side to keep them as low as possible. Package the rest of the batteries to get the weight where you want it. What will be fascinating is the balance of battery capacity vs weight - will people take a lightweight 150 mile version or take a hefty weight hit for 300+?
A quick and anecdotal check on the average mileage of a 10 year old Cayman (probably the most useable small sportscar) suggests most do less than 6k miles per year, or about 115 miles per week. https://twitter.com/TimPollardCars/status/14454582...
Quite a few articles around it in recent days too - https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsch...
Porsche won't be electrifying any current platforms but the future ones are geared around it. Key thing is packaging batteries - they tend to be under seats at the moment or full skateboard, which puts driver/passenger too high for sports cars. Will probably be more like a TVR chassis, batteries down the middle, motor at one or both ends, occupants either side to keep them as low as possible. Package the rest of the batteries to get the weight where you want it. What will be fascinating is the balance of battery capacity vs weight - will people take a lightweight 150 mile version or take a hefty weight hit for 300+?
Based on that I'd say 150 miles of range from a smaller/lighter battery pack would suit the majority of buyers.
Dodge are releasing a EV muscle Car in 2024
I agree the muscle car needs noise and stuff but by then, hopefully theyve sorted out the fake engine noise speakers.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36967941/dodge-...
I agree the muscle car needs noise and stuff but by then, hopefully theyve sorted out the fake engine noise speakers.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36967941/dodge-...
SWoll said:
A quick and anecdotal check on the average mileage of a 10 year old Cayman (probably the most useable small sportscar) suggests most do less than 6k miles per year, or about 115 miles per week.
Based on that I'd say 150 miles of range from a smaller/lighter battery pack would suit the majority of buyers.
Not entirely sure it works as simply as that. They're often second or third cars that are only taken out for special occasions.Based on that I'd say 150 miles of range from a smaller/lighter battery pack would suit the majority of buyers.
Our Boxster probably only does 5 or 6k a year but a substantial number of those miles is covered on fairly infrequent longer trips. I recently drove it from one side of Scotland to the other for a weekend with friends; a car with a quoted 150 mile range would have been hopeless once you factor in range reduction from driving at speed etc.
I think the benefits of an EV are much better suited to a daily driver and will keep ICE for fun for as long as I'm allowed. The cost of petrol for the small mileage it covers is pretty inconsequential.
georgeyboy12345 said:
Whilst acceleration of EV’s is good, handling still leaves a lot to be desired. This is entirely caused by their high kerbweights. Whilst they do typically handle well for heavy cars, it’s one of the hurdles they need to overcome if they are to better petrol powered cars in the handling stakes, especially on track. Whether manufacturers are bothered about this is another thing.
Audi RS e-tron GT review from Top Gear:....The ride, even on 21-inch wheels, is magically supple, the grip is otherworldly (honestly, the speed you can carry around a roundabout is naughty)....
....the RS e-tron GT feels as fast as you could ever comfortably want to go in a road car. Anymore and you just start to feel sick....
...That could and would get boring if Audi didn’t have its handling sorted, but it does. The body control on this 2.3-tonne car is such that it feels about 400kg lighter than it actually is. Agile and alert, when physics dictate it should be heaving around on its suspension....
Doesn't read like 'leaves a lot to be desired' to me.
ZesPak said:
drdel said:
The basic laws of physics and chemistry means you cannot get out more than a proportion of what you put in.
Very easy to up the power of an electric motor but you'll need to charge more frequently and/or for longer.
Can you point to these laws? These seem awfully arbitrary? Very easy to up the power of an electric motor but you'll need to charge more frequently and/or for longer.
Edited by ZesPak on Wednesday 6th October 15:54
TomTheTyke said:
Am I reading that article wrong or does it say you will still be able to turn this system off, and the author just thinks it looks 'likely' this might not be the case in future?
My belief it will be the same as when they introduced compulsory seat belt use. To begin with drivers were given a warning to allow them to get used to the new law, but this only lasted a while before the seat belt law was being fully enforced.At the moment the ISA can be turned off, but each time it is a log is made in the ECM, and the insurance company and police can get a copy of this log in the event of a crash.
“It’s important to clarify that the EU legislation proposes that the systems should be overridable, allowing the driver to accelerate beyond the limit if required to do so.”
The legislation also suggests that the systems should also be ‘default on’, manually cancellable and recycle on the ignition cycle, meaning the system resets to the ‘default on’ setting every time the car is restarted.
https://www.thatcham.org/intelligent-speed-assista...
Once the system has been in place for a few years the off switch will probably be removed.
Discombobulate said:
ZesPak said:
drdel said:
The basic laws of physics and chemistry means you cannot get out more than a proportion of what you put in.
Very easy to up the power of an electric motor but you'll need to charge more frequently and/or for longer.
Can you point to these laws? These seem awfully arbitrary? Very easy to up the power of an electric motor but you'll need to charge more frequently and/or for longer.
drdel said:
The basic laws of physics and chemistry means you cannot get out more than a proportion of what you put in.
What is a "proportion"? 98%? Sounds great!drdel said:
Very easy to up the power of an electric motor but you'll need to charge more frequently and/or for longer.
Longer than what? So do Tesla's travel further and charge well because they have low powered motors?You just put down some arbitrary words like "proportion" and "longer" as if they mean anything...
GT911 said:
georgeyboy12345 said:
Whilst acceleration of EV’s is good, handling still leaves a lot to be desired. This is entirely caused by their high kerbweights. Whilst they do typically handle well for heavy cars, it’s one of the hurdles they need to overcome if they are to better petrol powered cars in the handling stakes, especially on track. Whether manufacturers are bothered about this is another thing.
Audi RS e-tron GT review from Top Gear:....The ride, even on 21-inch wheels, is magically supple, the grip is otherworldly (honestly, the speed you can carry around a roundabout is naughty)....
....the RS e-tron GT feels as fast as you could ever comfortably want to go in a road car. Anymore and you just start to feel sick....
...That could and would get boring if Audi didn’t have its handling sorted, but it does. The body control on this 2.3-tonne car is such that it feels about 400kg lighter than it actually is. Agile and alert, when physics dictate it should be heaving around on its suspension....
Doesn't read like 'leaves a lot to be desired' to me.
Ok bear with me here...
Given that one of the reasons an EV is considered dull is that you effectively steer and use one pedal for faster/slower.
The car has both electronic throttle and also brake by wire, it also has significant amounts of control and a wide performance envelope, it could in
theory be mapped to emulate other cars....
With that in mind do you think there is a market for a bas**rd love child between a Tesla and a fantec driving wheel/pedal set.
Mount a gearstick & clutch pedal or flappy paddles in the car and have a mode where the car drives (and makes noises) as if it was taking inputs from the gearstick/paddles, the car could behave normally as an EV at all other times - the extra controls could even be used to control features such as regen for example. It becomes the performance driver pack as a factory option on your EV...
It's not beyond the whit of man to simulate any car you want digitally as long as the nut behind the wheel gets the right sets of inputs, drive a supercar for the weekend - buy/rent the DLC pack that configures the dial set, pedal/wheel resistances, active suspension and gear feel for a <insert your choice here>.
The question is would the emulation work and this "assisted reality" would it be enough for joe public petrolhead?
Given that one of the reasons an EV is considered dull is that you effectively steer and use one pedal for faster/slower.
The car has both electronic throttle and also brake by wire, it also has significant amounts of control and a wide performance envelope, it could in
theory be mapped to emulate other cars....
With that in mind do you think there is a market for a bas**rd love child between a Tesla and a fantec driving wheel/pedal set.
Mount a gearstick & clutch pedal or flappy paddles in the car and have a mode where the car drives (and makes noises) as if it was taking inputs from the gearstick/paddles, the car could behave normally as an EV at all other times - the extra controls could even be used to control features such as regen for example. It becomes the performance driver pack as a factory option on your EV...
It's not beyond the whit of man to simulate any car you want digitally as long as the nut behind the wheel gets the right sets of inputs, drive a supercar for the weekend - buy/rent the DLC pack that configures the dial set, pedal/wheel resistances, active suspension and gear feel for a <insert your choice here>.
The question is would the emulation work and this "assisted reality" would it be enough for joe public petrolhead?
re33 said:
Is it fun? The description sounds like it drives like a Golf R, competent but not fun.
First google hit:....But even if it’s not quite as sharp and focused as the Taycan, the E-Tron GT, particularly the RS, is still a hoot to drive on a winding road. In fact, this is what this video is about and the car is very apt at threading together corner after corner. It’s also enjoyable for the driver - you can genuinely have fun throwing the RS GT around a twisty canyon or mountain road, just not quite as much fun as you would be having in a comparable Porsche Taycan...
Sure, the novelty factor will no doubt start to wear off for longer term ownership compared to a journo's test drive.
There is a however the counterpoint that often the characteristic of a 'fun' car can also make it taxing over long distances.
Maybe EVs will strike a good balance as a longer term proposition.
te and the more powerful ones destroyed tyres in no time. The sheer weight of them is a huge challenge for suspension joints, brakes and tyres. Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff