How far can EV power outputs go ?
Discussion
kambites said:
TheDeuce said:
Fair enough at the budget end of the family car sector - but what about the more upmarket stuff?
Compare the sort of lower powered BMW X3's and X5's that people buy because they like the look and the brand, they don't care the car is underpowered, they're not a passionate driver, they just want a car that is fashionable and makes them feel good.
Those same people moving to the electric equivalents are all straight in to the 300-500hp club, and probably double the torque they're used too.
Same for most of the 'not so cheap' brands EV's.
But what makes you think those people would want 300bhp let alone 500? I know it's hard for a driving enthusiast to understand, but I think most (obviously not all) of them would genuinely prefer to have less power. Compare the sort of lower powered BMW X3's and X5's that people buy because they like the look and the brand, they don't care the car is underpowered, they're not a passionate driver, they just want a car that is fashionable and makes them feel good.
Those same people moving to the electric equivalents are all straight in to the 300-500hp club, and probably double the torque they're used too.
Same for most of the 'not so cheap' brands EV's.
Many won't want the extra power but many will - I don't want to generalise but even in these woke times, I think most blokes would be happy to trade in a 160hp focus and bring home an EV that happens to have double the power. Those that don't want, don't care, won't be as likely to be put off by it as those that will be drawn to it imo.
Power is cheap in EV land. What not give a car a fun amount of power to appeal to as many people as possible? Especially when Tesla already set the bar quite high initially..
kambites said:
However you measure it, for most buyers of white-goods type cars I think once 0-60 times get below something like seven or eight seconds, extra performance becomes a negative rather than a positive because of its impact on things like insurance premiums. Especially if that 7-8 seconds is as accessible as it tends to be in EVs.
Hmm. I think those goalposts move, and I remember when you could have written that about ten or eleven seconds. Does it really put anyone off a 320d that it does sixty in 6.6 seconds?otolith said:
kambites said:
However you measure it, for most buyers of white-goods type cars I think once 0-60 times get below something like seven or eight seconds, extra performance becomes a negative rather than a positive because of its impact on things like insurance premiums. Especially if that 7-8 seconds is as accessible as it tends to be in EVs.
Hmm. I think those goalposts move, and I remember when you could have written that about ten or eleven seconds. Does it really put anyone off a 320d that it does sixty in 6.6 seconds?I don't for one minute think most drivers obsess over speed/power the way a PHer might.. but I do think most drivers are perfectly happy to have a surprising bit of extra poke in their new car - so long as it's still practical/efficient etc.
Also the motor industry itself has sold the idea that EV equals faster/nippier than equivalent ICE, so punters probably have a certain expectation of at least a small step up.
J4CKO said:
Will legislation creep in to limit power ? Back in the day, the Lotus Carlton caused uproar with 375 bhp, Tesla Plaid appears, not a murmur.
The safety brigade are slow to get on the case of 'dangerous excessive acceleration'. I would expect insurance companies to jump on the raised premium bandwagon too. Should 'everyday' cars be limited to 2.7 m/s^2 (0-60 mph in 10 secs) so that drivers can cope? 
Concerns have been voiced for some years:
...high acceleration creates huge danger on the roads, especially when combined with the quietness of an electric car. It is going to be extremely difficult for pedestrians, cyclists and indeed other drivers to cope with louts in electric cars pulling away from traffic lights or pulling out of corners. I will make a prediction: the widespread introduction of electric cars on British roads will be accompanied by a sharp rise in pedestrian and cyclist deaths, and that lawmakers will only appreciate the problem when it is far too late.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-hidden-dan...
https://www.h-nlaw.com/blog/tesla-sudden-unexpecte...
TheDeuce said:
I don't for one minute think most drivers obsess over speed/power the way a PHer might.. but I do think most drivers are perfectly happy to have a surprising bit of extra poke in their new car - so long as it's still practical/efficient etc.
... and cheap enough to insure, which I think it what will keep entry level EV power levels down, at least in the UK. Maybe a general increase in power and performance of vehicles will see the link to insurance risk softened, but I'm not convinced. I'm sure that with insurance assessment as it is today, if I asked people I know whether they'd prefer to pay £400 a year to insure a 150bhp car or £600 to insure a 400bhp car, 80% of them would choose the 150bhp car.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 26th January 07:37
Googling suggests that Ross Clark (author of the Spectator article) doesn’t seem to like electric cars.
I suspect that the reason the insurance isn’t getting loaded may be that fast cars are not an inherently high insurance risk, people who buy fast cars because they are fast are. Now that they think I’m old and sensible the performance of a car makes very little difference to the insurance costs.
I suspect that the reason the insurance isn’t getting loaded may be that fast cars are not an inherently high insurance risk, people who buy fast cars because they are fast are. Now that they think I’m old and sensible the performance of a car makes very little difference to the insurance costs.
otolith said:
I suspect that the reason the insurance isn’t getting loaded may be that fast cars are not an inherently high insurance risk, people who buy fast cars because they are fast are. Now that they think I’m old and sensible the performance of a car makes very little difference to the insurance costs.
There is inevitably an element of both to it but yes I suspect the majority of it comes down to the type of people who buy fast cars rather than the fact the cars are fast. However, that doesn't necessarily change the point because we end up in a sort of chicken and egg situation where low risk drivers buy low powered cars because they're cheaper to insure and they see no value in higher powered vehicles.bigothunter said:
The safety brigade are slow to get on the case of 'dangerous excessive acceleration'. I would expect insurance companies to jump on the raised premium bandwagon too. Should 'everyday' cars be limited to 2.7 m/s^2 (0-60 mph in 10 secs) so that drivers can cope?
Concerns have been voiced for some years:
...high acceleration creates huge danger on the roads, especially when combined with the quietness of an electric car. It is going to be extremely difficult for pedestrians, cyclists and indeed other drivers to cope with louts in electric cars pulling away from traffic lights or pulling out of corners. I will make a prediction: the widespread introduction of electric cars on British roads will be accompanied by a sharp rise in pedestrian and cyclist deaths, and that lawmakers will only appreciate the problem when it is far too late.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-hidden-dan...
https://www.h-nlaw.com/blog/tesla-sudden-unexpecte...
Is that prediction already in question though? We've had hundreds of thousands of EV's on our roads for a while now, and certainly I and others I know do make use of the 'dangerous acceleration'... So where's this increase in pedestrian incidents?Concerns have been voiced for some years:
...high acceleration creates huge danger on the roads, especially when combined with the quietness of an electric car. It is going to be extremely difficult for pedestrians, cyclists and indeed other drivers to cope with louts in electric cars pulling away from traffic lights or pulling out of corners. I will make a prediction: the widespread introduction of electric cars on British roads will be accompanied by a sharp rise in pedestrian and cyclist deaths, and that lawmakers will only appreciate the problem when it is far too late.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-hidden-dan...
https://www.h-nlaw.com/blog/tesla-sudden-unexpecte...
One thing that I noticed when I first got an EV is that in response to pedestrians not always detecting the car, I myself became far more aware and wary of pedestrians. I essentially compensated for their lack of awareness. Has anyone else found themselves more pedestrian aware having started driving EV?
TheDeuce said:
Is that prediction already in question though? We've had hundreds of thousands of EV's on our roads for a while now, and certainly I and others I know do make use of the 'dangerous acceleration'... So where's this increase in pedestrian incidents?
One thing that I noticed when I first got an EV is that in response to pedestrians not always detecting the car, I myself became far more aware and wary of pedestrians. I essentially compensated for their lack of awareness. Has anyone else found themselves more pedestrian aware having started driving EV?
100%, you very quickly realize you have to be. Our current EV is the first we've had fitted with the low speed audible warning for pedestrians but still take more care than previously.One thing that I noticed when I first got an EV is that in response to pedestrians not always detecting the car, I myself became far more aware and wary of pedestrians. I essentially compensated for their lack of awareness. Has anyone else found themselves more pedestrian aware having started driving EV?
There will of course still be drivers that don't, and I will add that some responsibility does need to sit with pedestrians to pay more attention also as the party at the most risk.
SWoll said:
TheDeuce said:
Is that prediction already in question though? We've had hundreds of thousands of EV's on our roads for a while now, and certainly I and others I know do make use of the 'dangerous acceleration'... So where's this increase in pedestrian incidents?
One thing that I noticed when I first got an EV is that in response to pedestrians not always detecting the car, I myself became far more aware and wary of pedestrians. I essentially compensated for their lack of awareness. Has anyone else found themselves more pedestrian aware having started driving EV?
100%, you very quickly realize you have to be. Our current EV is the first we've had fitted with the low speed audible warning for pedestrians but still take more care than previously.One thing that I noticed when I first got an EV is that in response to pedestrians not always detecting the car, I myself became far more aware and wary of pedestrians. I essentially compensated for their lack of awareness. Has anyone else found themselves more pedestrian aware having started driving EV?
There will of course still be drivers that don't, and I will add that some responsibility does need to sit with pedestrians to pay more attention also as the party at the most risk.
The thing I think represents one of the greatest dangers is pedestrians nipping across the road in between queing cars at a junction. If it's an ICE they're about to dart across the front of they'll know it's not immanently about to move forward because it's just ticking over or engine off - before ICE cars begin to actually move they make noise, the revs pick up and transmission engages. EV's however sit there sounding to all the world like an ICE with the engine stopped, but then with not even a fraction of a seconds audible warning, they can have moved several metres.
Maybe that's quite a specific thing and I do live in a busy, touristy town, but it's something I've become very conscious of and definitely see pedestrians look surprised on occasion when my 'silent' car suddenly shifts forwards a metre.
I have always enjoyed driving & been driving for more than 50 years.
Since 2003 my cars have had horsepower of 163, 150, 160, 170, 150 with 0-60 from just under 8sec to 8.5.
I have never felt that more power would increase my enjoyment. I have driven more powerful cars, including a Model3, but despite being able to afford them have never felt the need. Very little chance to legally use that extra performance in the UK.
I have friends with more powerful cars than mine who boast they can complete journeys in less time than me, but only by less than 5 minutes per hour, & they admit breaking speed limits to do so.
I will probably have a (used) EV sometime in the future but won't feel it necessary to have 'high' hp & certainly not a huge SUV.
Since 2003 my cars have had horsepower of 163, 150, 160, 170, 150 with 0-60 from just under 8sec to 8.5.
I have never felt that more power would increase my enjoyment. I have driven more powerful cars, including a Model3, but despite being able to afford them have never felt the need. Very little chance to legally use that extra performance in the UK.
I have friends with more powerful cars than mine who boast they can complete journeys in less time than me, but only by less than 5 minutes per hour, & they admit breaking speed limits to do so.
I will probably have a (used) EV sometime in the future but won't feel it necessary to have 'high' hp & certainly not a huge SUV.
Glosphil said:
I have always enjoyed driving & been driving for more than 50 years.
Since 2003 my cars have had horsepower of 163, 150, 160, 170, 150 with 0-60 from just under 8sec to 8.5.
I have never felt that more power would increase my enjoyment. I have driven more powerful cars, including a Model3, but despite being able to afford them have never felt the need. Very little chance to legally use that extra performance in the UK.
I have friends with more powerful cars than mine who boast they can complete journeys in less time than me, but only by less than 5 minutes per hour, & they admit breaking speed limits to do so.
I will probably have a (used) EV sometime in the future but won't feel it necessary to have 'high' hp & certainly not a huge SUV.
There's a fair few practical, sensible and safety related advantages to extra power - and in EV terms in particular, sharper throttle response.Since 2003 my cars have had horsepower of 163, 150, 160, 170, 150 with 0-60 from just under 8sec to 8.5.
I have never felt that more power would increase my enjoyment. I have driven more powerful cars, including a Model3, but despite being able to afford them have never felt the need. Very little chance to legally use that extra performance in the UK.
I have friends with more powerful cars than mine who boast they can complete journeys in less time than me, but only by less than 5 minutes per hour, & they admit breaking speed limits to do so.
I will probably have a (used) EV sometime in the future but won't feel it necessary to have 'high' hp & certainly not a huge SUV.
It's not all about racing your mates home and upsetting plod
TheDeuce said:
A lot of those buyers will have no previous experience if anything like as powerful - suspect a few will come a cropper as a result!
Yep. Much like the silver surfers (my generation) who decide to get back into motorcycling and are not expecting the extreme performance of modern bikes.My Tesla feels as quick as my Ford GT or Murcielago did - certainly up to 80/90. It doesn't have the ability to power on to 200mph, but the acceleration in the real world feels familiar.
Drivers who previously owned a middle of the road ICE car, would find some EV's to feel like F1 cars in comparison.
NDA said:
TheDeuce said:
A lot of those buyers will have no previous experience if anything like as powerful - suspect a few will come a cropper as a result!
Yep. Much like the silver surfers (my generation) who decide to get back into motorcycling and are not expecting the extreme performance of modern bikes.My Tesla feels as quick as my Ford GT or Murcielago did - certainly up to 80/90. It doesn't have the ability to power on to 200mph, but the acceleration in the real world feels familiar.
Drivers who previously owned a middle of the road ICE car, would find some EV's to feel like F1 cars in comparison.
And some EV's WILL pin an F1 car 0-60! Although you need a super license to drive an F1 car on a circuit itself graded with a very high level of safety equipment. But in the real world a wealthy teenager can drive a 2000hp EV on the public roads
Edited by TheDeuce on Wednesday 26th January 12:25
I guess normal folk only use what they have and as much as they need, my Mother in Law has a 2 litre diesel BMW which has 180 bhp, she doesnt use all 180 bhp, like my gran who bought a monstrous Sony separates hifi in the eighties never went above 2 on the volume and only listened to country and western type stuff, couldn't be upsetting Betty next door with max volume Prodigy or similar.
I think the problems will come in as Teslas migrate downwards, had an early one trolling me in my Fiesta ST so its started for the Tesla, was always the case for the Fiesta
I think the problems will come in as Teslas migrate downwards, had an early one trolling me in my Fiesta ST so its started for the Tesla, was always the case for the Fiesta
TheDeuce said:
Pedestrians will adapt over time, it's inevitable. A slow evolution though..
The thing I think represents one of the greatest dangers is pedestrians nipping across the road in between queing cars at a junction. If it's an ICE they're about to dart across the front of they'll know it's not immanently about to move forward because it's just ticking over or engine off - before ICE cars begin to actually move they make noise, the revs pick up and transmission engages. EV's however sit there sounding to all the world like an ICE with the engine stopped, but then with not even a fraction of a seconds audible warning, they can have moved several metres.
Maybe that's quite a specific thing and I do live in a busy, touristy town, but it's something I've become very conscious of and definitely see pedestrians look surprised on occasion when my 'silent' car suddenly shifts forwards a metre.
Thing is, yes this happens, but mostly it's unlikely to result in any significan injury because the impact speed is really low. "run into" someone at 5mph and unless you actually run them over ie your tyres roll over there body, at the worst you'll knock em down, perhaps break a bone if they are old/unlucky, but mostly injury will be verbal in return!!The thing I think represents one of the greatest dangers is pedestrians nipping across the road in between queing cars at a junction. If it's an ICE they're about to dart across the front of they'll know it's not immanently about to move forward because it's just ticking over or engine off - before ICE cars begin to actually move they make noise, the revs pick up and transmission engages. EV's however sit there sounding to all the world like an ICE with the engine stopped, but then with not even a fraction of a seconds audible warning, they can have moved several metres.
Maybe that's quite a specific thing and I do live in a busy, touristy town, but it's something I've become very conscious of and definitely see pedestrians look surprised on occasion when my 'silent' car suddenly shifts forwards a metre.
Max_Torque said:
Thing is, yes this happens, but mostly it's unlikely to result in any significan injury because the impact speed is really low. "run into" someone at 5mph and unless you actually run them over ie your tyres roll over there body, at the worst you'll knock em down, perhaps break a bone if they are old/unlucky
But they've still gone and scratched my bumper!!! 
Max_Torque said:
My "sporty" EV has 190 horses, weighs a little under 1,200kg and has 175 section tyres. It is imo, a perfect match :-)
You are rounding up the wrong way. Much as I love my i3 the s is actually 184 bhp and a shade under 1300kg. My wife however is 6 feet tall and shaped like Halle Berry
TheDeuce said:
Glosphil said:
I have always enjoyed driving & been driving for more than 50 years.
Since 2003 my cars have had horsepower of 163, 150, 160, 170, 150 with 0-60 from just under 8sec to 8.5.
I have never felt that more power would increase my enjoyment. I have driven more powerful cars, including a Model3, but despite being able to afford them have never felt the need. Very little chance to legally use that extra performance in the UK.
I have friends with more powerful cars than mine who boast they can complete journeys in less time than me, but only by less than 5 minutes per hour, & they admit breaking speed limits to do so.
I will probably have a (used) EV sometime in the future but won't feel it necessary to have 'high' hp & certainly not a huge SUV.
There's a fair few practical, sensible and safety related advantages to extra power - and in EV terms in particular, sharper throttle response.Since 2003 my cars have had horsepower of 163, 150, 160, 170, 150 with 0-60 from just under 8sec to 8.5.
I have never felt that more power would increase my enjoyment. I have driven more powerful cars, including a Model3, but despite being able to afford them have never felt the need. Very little chance to legally use that extra performance in the UK.
I have friends with more powerful cars than mine who boast they can complete journeys in less time than me, but only by less than 5 minutes per hour, & they admit breaking speed limits to do so.
I will probably have a (used) EV sometime in the future but won't feel it necessary to have 'high' hp & certainly not a huge SUV.
It's not all about racing your mates home and upsetting plod
But how much power is required for your 'safety related advantages'? What safety related advantages?
For someone driving a 65hp Corsa then 150hp would seem a big upgrade.
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