Battery replacement cost, £15,000!!!
Discussion
The spinner of plates said:
SidewaysSi said:
Not surprising really...new car with new tech trying to save the planet costs the owner a shedload.
Keep it simple and keep smiling.
Tend to agree, early adoption costs. Keep it simple and keep smiling.
But... plenty of 10+ yr Toyota / Lexus rolling around.
Is the Mercedes’ actually undriveable without the battery working? I doubt it, plenty of plug in hybrids driving around with empty batteries
Any 8 year old car might crap it’s engine and cost more to repair than it’s worth, plus £15k Is what the dealer is charging, sure a independent will do it for much less, just like when people get cheaper services or repairs at a Indy vs a dealer
Any 8 year old car might crap it’s engine and cost more to repair than it’s worth, plus £15k Is what the dealer is charging, sure a independent will do it for much less, just like when people get cheaper services or repairs at a Indy vs a dealer
Who remembers cars like the Fiat Coupe 20v which had residual values which went through the floor approaching 50k miles and again at 100k miles, due to what was considered a cost prohibitive timing belt replacement interval which required the engine out?
Electric cars are still new and sexy. We're only just starting to see the repair costs everyone with any experience of lithium batteries predicted would happen but couldn't quantify. The market is too immature for the average buyer to correlate how electric cars are going to cripple them financially. Overall I don't believe people are stupid, they just lack the knowledge.
ICE cars have long had a psychological barrier of 100k milage because back in the day people knew the older engines would be tired. As engines got better, we've all learned that many cars are still knackered at 100k unless someone has changed most of the bushes, ball joints, springs and dampers and the CV joints because they wear also.
Now we're seeing proof that 8-10 year old BEVs can through bills bigger than most driving 10 year old cars spend on the car.
Perhaps a way to ensure these cars reach late life, remain viable financially and don't become worthless liabilities at 8 years old could be for government policy to mandate that the first buyer price must have the cost of the first battery replacement added on top, transferrable with the car when it's traded on. This could stabilise second hand pricing, and apply a healthy punitive "tax" on new owners similar to how new ICE buyers are hit with a double dunt of VED. Yes, what I'm proposing is much more severe on the first buyer but equally the carbon footprint of that first buyer is much higher than if they'd bought an ICE, and the majority of them will not keep the car long enough to be carbon neutral with it. Their financing the second battery the car will require to pay off its environmental debt could ensure that a future owner uses an existing car without worrying about a battery cost, rather than scrapping it and encouraging yet another new one to be built further up the ownership chain.
Electric cars are still new and sexy. We're only just starting to see the repair costs everyone with any experience of lithium batteries predicted would happen but couldn't quantify. The market is too immature for the average buyer to correlate how electric cars are going to cripple them financially. Overall I don't believe people are stupid, they just lack the knowledge.
ICE cars have long had a psychological barrier of 100k milage because back in the day people knew the older engines would be tired. As engines got better, we've all learned that many cars are still knackered at 100k unless someone has changed most of the bushes, ball joints, springs and dampers and the CV joints because they wear also.
Now we're seeing proof that 8-10 year old BEVs can through bills bigger than most driving 10 year old cars spend on the car.
Perhaps a way to ensure these cars reach late life, remain viable financially and don't become worthless liabilities at 8 years old could be for government policy to mandate that the first buyer price must have the cost of the first battery replacement added on top, transferrable with the car when it's traded on. This could stabilise second hand pricing, and apply a healthy punitive "tax" on new owners similar to how new ICE buyers are hit with a double dunt of VED. Yes, what I'm proposing is much more severe on the first buyer but equally the carbon footprint of that first buyer is much higher than if they'd bought an ICE, and the majority of them will not keep the car long enough to be carbon neutral with it. Their financing the second battery the car will require to pay off its environmental debt could ensure that a future owner uses an existing car without worrying about a battery cost, rather than scrapping it and encouraging yet another new one to be built further up the ownership chain.
stickleback123 said:
Plenty of modern mercs crap their engines out too, and I'm sure the dealer would want the same (or more) to replace your 4 cylinder diesel rattler.
Complex machines cost a lot to fix when they break, this is not news.
Also, don't buy a Mercedes if you don't want early and expensive failures. They're s
t quality and they've been st for 25 years now, if you hadn't noticed that yet you need to start paying more attention.
Guess I need to pay more attention. Mine has needed a new thermostat in the 4 years and 40k miles, if you do not include servicing. Complex machines cost a lot to fix when they break, this is not news.
Also, don't buy a Mercedes if you don't want early and expensive failures. They're s
t quality and they've been st for 25 years now, if you hadn't noticed that yet you need to start paying more attention.jamieduff1981 said:
Perhaps a way to ensure these cars reach late life, remain viable financially and don't become worthless liabilities at 8 years old could be for government policy to mandate that the first buyer price must have the cost of the first battery replacement added on top, transferrable with the car when it's traded on. This could stabilise second hand pricing, and apply a healthy punitive "tax" on new owners similar to how new ICE buyers are hit with a double dunt of VED. Yes, what I'm proposing is much more severe on the first buyer but equally the carbon footprint of that first buyer is much higher than if they'd bought an ICE, and the majority of them will not keep the car long enough to be carbon neutral with it. Their financing the second battery the car will require to pay off its environmental debt could ensure that a future owner uses an existing car without worrying about a battery cost, rather than scrapping it and encouraging yet another new one to be built further up the ownership chain.
Interesting but what is not understood is in this example how knackered is the battery, is it a case of changing a couple of duff cells and it is useable for a reasonable period or you change the duff ones now and you're back repeatedly in say 3 months to change some more as the cells continue to fail until all cells in the battery have been replaced.jamieduff1981 said:
Who remembers cars like the Fiat Coupe 20v which had residual values which went through the floor approaching 50k miles and again at 100k miles, due to what was considered a cost prohibitive timing belt replacement interval which required the engine out?
Ferrari 355 's (my dream car when I was young) needed a timing belt change every 5 years. However you couldnt get to the timing belt with the engine in the car, the cost to replace them were £5000 in the 1990s. I think they disconnected the engine and then lifted the rest of the 355 up on a lift.Many were sold when this belt change was due.
Taking the engine out of a Ferrari Testarosta was a 10 hour job.
gottans said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Perhaps a way to ensure these cars reach late life, remain viable financially and don't become worthless liabilities at 8 years old could be for government policy to mandate that the first buyer price must have the cost of the first battery replacement added on top, transferrable with the car when it's traded on. This could stabilise second hand pricing, and apply a healthy punitive "tax" on new owners similar to how new ICE buyers are hit with a double dunt of VED. Yes, what I'm proposing is much more severe on the first buyer but equally the carbon footprint of that first buyer is much higher than if they'd bought an ICE, and the majority of them will not keep the car long enough to be carbon neutral with it. Their financing the second battery the car will require to pay off its environmental debt could ensure that a future owner uses an existing car without worrying about a battery cost, rather than scrapping it and encouraging yet another new one to be built further up the ownership chain.
Interesting but what is not understood is in this example how knackered is the battery, is it a case of changing a couple of duff cells and it is useable for a reasonable period or you change the duff ones now and you're back repeatedly in say 3 months to change some more as the cells continue to fail until all cells in the battery have been replaced.From my dealings with lithium batteries in rc models generally one failed cell could fail at any time, but older cells were fairly reliably poor. It could be fear of the unknown on my part but I suspect that on an 8-10 year old BEV changing single cells might be more akin to replacing one piston and its rings at a time.
Muppet007 said:
Guess I need to pay more attention. Mine has needed a new thermostat in the 4 years and 40k miles, if you do not include servicing.
I don't think anyone is saying they all fail, or even that most of them do. Just that they're more prone to expensive failures than many other brands. jamieduff1981 said:
That's a good point. Again generally on the tech us dinosaurs are familiar with if you change an engine even with a used one, then unless very unlucky you're probably good to go for as long as the car lasts otherwise.
From my dealings with lithium batteries in rc models generally one failed cell could fail at any time, but older cells were fairly reliably poor. It could be fear of the unknown on my part but I suspect that on an 8-10 year old BEV changing single cells might be more akin to replacing one piston and its rings at a time.
I knew someone who ran a first generation Prius, he had connected wires to the battery pack so he could identify and replace a failed stack of cells. It was the odd one every so often, the car was about 12 years old.From my dealings with lithium batteries in rc models generally one failed cell could fail at any time, but older cells were fairly reliably poor. It could be fear of the unknown on my part but I suspect that on an 8-10 year old BEV changing single cells might be more akin to replacing one piston and its rings at a time.
He was an electrical engineer though so he knew what he was doing, batteries are scary!
jamieduff1981 said:
... I suspect that on an 8-10 year old BEV changing single cells might be more akin to replacing one piston and its rings at a time.
The difference, I suppose, being that your car doesn't have several thousand pistons. If it did, you might be more prone to replace just one of them if it failed. 
People tend not to replace actual cells though, they tend to replace the "modules" which are usually something from a few tens of cells, up to maybe 100, depending on how the pack is designed.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 27th January 20:23
DoctorX said:
Can you measure battery health in these cars like you can with an iPhone? A new form of clocking on the horizon 
You can indeed, usually down to reporting the condition of each individual module in the pack. However it's generally a proprietary interface for each manufacturer so you can't really do it yourself unless the car has a way to display it in its infotainment screen. It's getting easier for the more established cars though. For example for the Leaf, you can buy a cheap bluetooth OBD dongle and then get an app called "LeafSpy" for about £10 which will tell you everything there is to know about the battery.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 27th January 20:45
dvs_dave said:
No, they simply let other manufacturers introduce and develop the new tech until the kinks are worked out, and only then do they copy it and introduce that tech into their own vehicles.
Toyota/Lexus builds cars for the used market, not the new one. Which is all well and good if you’re happy buying cars that are a generation behind the competition.
That is complete nonsense. Not a single point is in any way true. Toyota/Lexus builds cars for the used market, not the new one. Which is all well and good if you’re happy buying cars that are a generation behind the competition.
kambites said:
frisbee said:
batteries are scary!
As long as you follow the basic rules of:1) Don't touch the metal bits
2) Don't connect metal bits to other metal bits they're not meant to be connected to
they're really not.
Anyway he put one on the wall outside the office and stabbed it with a scalpel (DO NOT DO THIS), cue change of tune and all batteries outside in a metal container.
The power density in these things is huge so letting anyone who doesn't know what they are doing loose on an EV battery is like smoking during a gas leak.
stickleback123 said:
Plenty of modern mercs crap their engines out too...
I think the point is that most cars don't crap their engine out - my OH runs a 16 year old BMW 120d and I run a 23 year old BMW 318is - whereas ALL electric cars WILL need their batteries replacing once the capacity has deteriorated beyond a certain level.Nickbrapp said:
Is the Mercedes’ actually undriveable without the battery working? I doubt it, plenty of plug in hybrids driving around with empty batteries
Any 8 year old car might crap it’s engine and cost more to repair than it’s worth, plus £15k Is what the dealer is charging, sure a independent will do it for much less, just like when people get cheaper services or repairs at a Indy vs a dealer
I question this as well. Any 8 year old car might crap it’s engine and cost more to repair than it’s worth, plus £15k Is what the dealer is charging, sure a independent will do it for much less, just like when people get cheaper services or repairs at a Indy vs a dealer
"He says he got the car checked by Mercedes Benz and was told that the battery had come to the end of its life after just eight years of motoring"
EV batteries are considered at the end of their life when they will only charge to 80% of their new capacity, and the battery pack is warrantied for 8 years, so it's to be expected.
And as a side note, if it had an ICE engine it only gets a 3 year warranty.
Mr Miata said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Who remembers cars like the Fiat Coupe 20v which had residual values which went through the floor approaching 50k miles and again at 100k miles, due to what was considered a cost prohibitive timing belt replacement interval which required the engine out?
Ferrari 355 's (my dream car when I was young) needed a timing belt change every 5 years. However you couldnt get to the timing belt with the engine in the car, the cost to replace them were £5000 in the 1990s. I think they disconnected the engine and then lifted the rest of the 355 up on a lift.Many were sold when this belt change was due.
Taking the engine out of a Ferrari Testarosta was a 10 hour job.
A205GTI said:
I think Tesla charge $20,000 in the us
I know rich rebuilds has started doing refurb jobs @ $3000 a pop in the us on tesla batteries where cells are failing
Reckon this will eventually happen in the uk, batteries out, identify useless ones and replace.
Not really comparable when the Mercedes pack is 7kWh and the Tesla one will be at least 60kWh. I know rich rebuilds has started doing refurb jobs @ $3000 a pop in the us on tesla batteries where cells are failing
Reckon this will eventually happen in the uk, batteries out, identify useless ones and replace.
But yes, remanufactured/rebuilt packs WILL become normal. Manufacturers are making their packs more serviceable (because it's usually just one rogue cell or something insignificant that goes wrong) as well. This is early adopter issues.
But personally, as an EV design engineer, I would not buy an EV more than 5-6 years old right now.
gottans said:
Anyway he put one on the wall outside the office and stabbed it with a scalpel (DO NOT DO THIS), cue change of tune and all batteries outside in a metal container.
Not putting them in a metal container kind of comes under the rules I suggested! I'd kind of assumed that "not sticking sharp things into them" was obvious.Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff