In flames: Paris takes 149 electric buses off the road
Discussion
Because of course EV parking needs careful thought: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-4...
Witchfinder said:
Who would have thought that pushing over 100hp out of a tiny battery that's prone to thermal runaways would be a problem?
Maybe let's put that battery close to a 100°C ICE or a 200°C exhaust, that'll help
ZesPak said:
Witchfinder said:
Who would have thought that pushing over 100hp out of a tiny battery that's prone to thermal runaways would be a problem?
Maybe let's put that battery close to a 100°C ICE or a 200°C exhaust, that'll help
Also, based on the EV stats, if the average person owns 10 different EV's during their life, they have a 0.0025% chance of one of them catching fire. Or to put that another way, a person should expect to have owned in the region of 40,000 EV's before one of them finally starts a fire.
Thems some good odds.
Just a thought but when I was loading aircraft with dangerous goods one of the most dangerous of the dangerous goods was lithium batteries.
If I went through the reasons why it would take a while but suffice to say they displayed the dangerous characteristics of all the other categories of dangerous goods except Class 7 Radioactives.
If I went through the reasons why it would take a while but suffice to say they displayed the dangerous characteristics of all the other categories of dangerous goods except Class 7 Radioactives.
More than 3% of hybrid cars and 1.5% of petrol cars sold go on fire? Those figures seem a bit suspect or at least completely misleading.
It's not particularly clear but what i suspect they've done is to use the total number of each car type of any age that goes on fire and compare that to an annual sales figure for each type. In other words, it's absolute nonsense.
It's not particularly clear but what i suspect they've done is to use the total number of each car type of any age that goes on fire and compare that to an annual sales figure for each type. In other words, it's absolute nonsense.
Oilchange said:
Just a thought but when I was loading aircraft with dangerous goods one of the most dangerous of the dangerous goods was lithium batteries.
If I went through the reasons why it would take a while but suffice to say they displayed the dangerous characteristics of all the other categories of dangerous goods except Class 7 Radioactives.
Yet virtually every single flight made these days has at least several, and typically several hundred such batteries on board. Which is why few planes reach their destination and most fall from the sky in a fireball.If I went through the reasons why it would take a while but suffice to say they displayed the dangerous characteristics of all the other categories of dangerous goods except Class 7 Radioactives.
Snow and Rocks said:
More than 3% of hybrid cars and 1.5% of petrol cars sold go on fire? Those figures seem a bit suspect or at least completely misleading.
It's not particularly clear but what i suspect they've done is to use the total number of each car type of any age that goes on fire and compare that to an annual sales figure for each type. In other words, it's absolute nonsense.
Where on earth have you got those figures from It's not particularly clear but what i suspect they've done is to use the total number of each car type of any age that goes on fire and compare that to an annual sales figure for each type. In other words, it's absolute nonsense.
TheDeuce said:
That a genuinely interesting set of stats - I had no idea hybrids were so much more likely to catch fire.
Also, based on the EV stats, if the average person owns 10 different EV's during their life, they have a 0.0025% chance of one of them catching fire. Or to put that another way, a person should expect to have owned in the region of 40,000 EV's before one of them finally starts a fire.
Thems some good odds.
Hybrids have a lot of issues tbh.Also, based on the EV stats, if the average person owns 10 different EV's during their life, they have a 0.0025% chance of one of them catching fire. Or to put that another way, a person should expect to have owned in the region of 40,000 EV's before one of them finally starts a fire.
Thems some good odds.
Fist of all, plug in hybrids can run for a while on just battery power. This means they need to push >100hp out of a relatively tiny battery.
The other way around, they regenerate energy on that same motor in the battery, both ways pushing c values close to 10.
Battery wear is very high on them as a rule.
On top of that, pushing batteries like that leads to overheating and eventually thermal runaways (as per Autoinsuranceez's data). Adding to that the proximity of very hot ICE components won't help either...
TheDeuce said:
Where on earth have you got those figures from
The graphic quotes fires per 100k sales. ~3500 of each 100k sales have clearly not gone on fire. There probably is some useful data out there that shows EVs are less likely to go on fire but what they've presented is nonsense.
Edited by Snow and Rocks on Tuesday 31st May 15:22
Oilchange said:
Just a thought but when I was loading aircraft with dangerous goods one of the most dangerous of the dangerous goods was lithium batteries.
If I went through the reasons why it would take a while but suffice to say they displayed the dangerous characteristics of all the other categories of dangerous goods except Class 7 Radioactives.
The irony being that in order to ship a battery pack that is not approved to UN3438 (you can google it for hours of fun reading) we actually put them in a "car" and fly them that way!If I went through the reasons why it would take a while but suffice to say they displayed the dangerous characteristics of all the other categories of dangerous goods except Class 7 Radioactives.
(read 3438 to find out why........)
Snow and Rocks said:
TheDeuce said:
Where on earth have you got those figures from
The graphic quotes fires per 100k sales. ~3500 of each 100k sales have clearly not gone on fire. There probably is some useful data out there that shows EVs are less likely to go on fire but what they've presented is nonsense.
Edited by Snow and Rocks on Tuesday 31st May 15:22
Do the % makes sense..? Probably when you throw in theft and vandalism in certain parts of the world. I am a little surprised hybrid is double petrol though, but then I suppose hybrid is mostly petrol ICE where as a lot of plain ICE cars are diesel, which is not directly flammable.
I admit it still feels a bit high. Especially vs the BEV figure which is so low.
raspy said:
bigothunter said:
After two fires, Paris temporarily takes the affected model off the road. Similar cases also in southern France and Germany. Are e-buses really safe and ready for use?
https://www.green-zones.eu/en/blog-news/in-flames-...
https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/vide...
Over 400,000 e-buses operating in China. Just saying. https://www.green-zones.eu/en/blog-news/in-flames-...
https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/vide...
I was living there for several years, busses are amazing.
The bus will drive into the bus station, battery swap area.
The bus stops between what looks like wheel guides, od 10 inch pipe, running along each side of the change area.
The side pods door open on both sides of the bus, small hydraulic lifting ram cylinders.
The battery is withdrawn from the left, by a hydraulic rig thing, it just hooks onto the battery pack, and a replacement battery is pushed in from the right, by another rig thing.
Takes 5 mins. max.
Faster than filling up with diesel.
Passengers are all still onboard.
The Chinese have this off to an art.
Same with the taxis.
They have battery changer places.
They drive over a pit, the battery is lowered out the bottom,and a replacement charged one is offered up.
The problem is that i think they've taken the figures for all the vehicles that have gone on fire and divided them between only one year's worth of sales. Thus giving the quoted figures which are obviously ridiculous. The EV figure is likely comparatively low because the vast majority of EVs are still very new.
As i said above, EVs probably are less likely to go on fire (these buses aside!) but the quoted study is quite clearly either deliberately misleading or they've not understood the statistics properly.
As i said above, EVs probably are less likely to go on fire (these buses aside!) but the quoted study is quite clearly either deliberately misleading or they've not understood the statistics properly.
Snow and Rocks said:
The graphic quotes fires per 100k sales. ~3500 of each 100k sales have clearly not gone on fire.
There probably is some useful data out there that shows EVs are less likely to go on fire but what they've presented is nonsense.
Total of 52 electric car fires have been recorded by US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS). Assume that figure applies across all states in a population of 327 million. Whereas London alone experienced 54 EV fires in 2019, in a population of 9 million.There probably is some useful data out there that shows EVs are less likely to go on fire but what they've presented is nonsense.
Almost identical number of EV fires for just 2.8% population. Methinks the data is corrupt
Register1 said:
China have had e-busses for years.
...
The Chinese have this off to an art.
Same with the taxis.
They have battery changer places.
They drive over a pit, the battery is lowered out the bottom,and a replacement charged one is offered up.
Most Chinese busses (and cars) are running a LFP chemistry which is significantly less prone to thermal runaway than other popular chemistries....
The Chinese have this off to an art.
Same with the taxis.
They have battery changer places.
They drive over a pit, the battery is lowered out the bottom,and a replacement charged one is offered up.
Paris busses I believe are Lithium Polymer. London is using L-Magnesium-FP. Don't know much about the resistance to thermal runaway but had a few other quirks.
Snow and Rocks said:
TheDeuce said:
Where on earth have you got those figures from
The graphic quotes fires per 100k sales. ~3500 of each 100k sales have clearly not gone on fire. There probably is some useful data out there that shows EVs are less likely to go on fire but what they've presented is nonsense.
The actual percentages will be far, far lower.
Mind you….we should be getting a new battery for our Kona EV this year as a result of a Hyundai recall over some fires…..we are e years and 36k miles into our ownership, it’ll be (almost) like having a new engine for free!!
Worth noting that there is one additional and significant but temporary fire risk than BEVs bring that is currently the number one cause of BEV fires!
And this is fires caused by inproper charging facilities, mainly poor quality or in-appropriate domestic power outlets and wiring. Not really a fire of the BEV itself, but certianly a significant risk and contributor as people swap over to BEV's.
As time goes on however, people will get used to how to charge a BEV, and wiring will get upgraded and new standards will be applied and these fires will become rare as petrol station fires are today
And this is fires caused by inproper charging facilities, mainly poor quality or in-appropriate domestic power outlets and wiring. Not really a fire of the BEV itself, but certianly a significant risk and contributor as people swap over to BEV's.
As time goes on however, people will get used to how to charge a BEV, and wiring will get upgraded and new standards will be applied and these fires will become rare as petrol station fires are today
I think in part, with Buses that the implementation may not be as well developed and tested as for passenger cars and the volumes are much lower.
Over time the battery tech will change from the liquid based batteries to the dry types in development which reduces the risk of fires massively, not that it seems to be a massive problem, though when they do go up they can be quite hard to extinguish.
Its a bit skewed the perception of risk, ICE car goes up its just one of those things, EV goes up, "see I told you they are dodgy", bit of confirmation bias going on I think. Same with any self driving car if it has an accident, but human drivers crash every day and nobody bats an eyelid.
Anything that replaces existing options cant ever fail, even if the original one kills and mains hundreds of thousands and causes untold damage the new one cant have one failure and has to be perfect in every way and things dont work like that.
Over time the battery tech will change from the liquid based batteries to the dry types in development which reduces the risk of fires massively, not that it seems to be a massive problem, though when they do go up they can be quite hard to extinguish.
Its a bit skewed the perception of risk, ICE car goes up its just one of those things, EV goes up, "see I told you they are dodgy", bit of confirmation bias going on I think. Same with any self driving car if it has an accident, but human drivers crash every day and nobody bats an eyelid.
Anything that replaces existing options cant ever fail, even if the original one kills and mains hundreds of thousands and causes untold damage the new one cant have one failure and has to be perfect in every way and things dont work like that.
J4CKO said:
Its a bit skewed the perception of risk, ICE car goes up its just one of those things, EV goes up, "see I told you they are dodgy", bit of confirmation bias going on I think. Same with any self driving car if it has an accident, but human drivers crash every day and nobody bats an eyelid.
Anything that replaces existing options cant ever fail, even if the original one kills and mains hundreds of thousands and causes untold damage the new one cant have one failure and has to be perfect in every way and things dont work like that.
I thought someone would have said "Bendy-bus" by now. We had a couple of them on fire in Bath. Anything that replaces existing options cant ever fail, even if the original one kills and mains hundreds of thousands and causes untold damage the new one cant have one failure and has to be perfect in every way and things dont work like that.
I could be wrong but thought they were taken off the road in London after three fires.
They were then sold to Malta where, after another three fires, what were left were sold to Sudan...
A quick Google came up with a FOI request and data suggest 12 bendy buses on fire (no cause so some possibly arson?)
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/487670/resp...
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