EVs, stupidity, and common sense…
Discussion
Biggest problem I have encountered in a month of EV use of vehicles parked in 50kw fast charger bays, connected to the charger, unattended and the display showing battery full. So essentially denying the use of the charger to anyone else.
This is enabled by certain charging firms not having a system in place to prevent this by having an overstay fee. My car is a VW so I have not used Tesla Superchargers but I understand they have pretty high fees/fines if you remain plugged in after the vehicle is fully charged and as consequence they have fewer problems.
This is enabled by certain charging firms not having a system in place to prevent this by having an overstay fee. My car is a VW so I have not used Tesla Superchargers but I understand they have pretty high fees/fines if you remain plugged in after the vehicle is fully charged and as consequence they have fewer problems.
Edited by Mark V GTD on Monday 12th September 18:47
I don't want to defend the idiots, but playing devil's avocado for a moment...
Where is all this written down? Who got handed a "guide to EV ownership and all it's weirdnesses" with their EV? Nobody. Absolutely nothing. Not a hint, or a pointer towards a YouTube video to watch, or a helpful list of apps to try. Nothing.
I agree, most of it absolutely should be common sense, but the problem with common sense is that it's not that common. We're social leaners, and we work out stuff by seeing what others do. If one person is parked there but not plugged in, it must be ok, so another joins them, and another, and then the majority are doing it so everyone does it because that's just how things are done, and so on. It's cultural, because there's no law book to convey the rules, and not enough history, experience or convention for it to become common knowledge yet.
I can only suggest that we'll get out of this mess by taking action. Stick a polite note under their wiper. With 99% certainty they do it because nobody has pointed out to them that it's not the done thing. Or if it's a place you visit often, speak to the establishment and ask for better signage and/or "enforcement", or report them to the charger network operator. I'm sure others could come up with other suggestions.
Where is all this written down? Who got handed a "guide to EV ownership and all it's weirdnesses" with their EV? Nobody. Absolutely nothing. Not a hint, or a pointer towards a YouTube video to watch, or a helpful list of apps to try. Nothing.
I agree, most of it absolutely should be common sense, but the problem with common sense is that it's not that common. We're social leaners, and we work out stuff by seeing what others do. If one person is parked there but not plugged in, it must be ok, so another joins them, and another, and then the majority are doing it so everyone does it because that's just how things are done, and so on. It's cultural, because there's no law book to convey the rules, and not enough history, experience or convention for it to become common knowledge yet.
I can only suggest that we'll get out of this mess by taking action. Stick a polite note under their wiper. With 99% certainty they do it because nobody has pointed out to them that it's not the done thing. Or if it's a place you visit often, speak to the establishment and ask for better signage and/or "enforcement", or report them to the charger network operator. I'm sure others could come up with other suggestions.
RobbyJ said:
I've just got back from a road trip to Germany and I witnessed quite a bit of stupidity:
Full blown row at Folkestone Supercharger over a charging spot (2 Tesla owners)
An ID4 charging (right side charge port) on a Supercharger and me having to point out to around 5 Tesla's that they couldn't charge in the seemingly empty spot as the ID4 was using 'their' handle
Many many instances on the French autoroutes of non EV's just flat out ICE'ing Superchargers
A few instances of ICE'ing charge points in Germany despite clear signage
Two instances of non Tesla's trying to charge at Superchargers that weren't open to non-Tesla's. In these cases I politely showed them how to use the app to see what was open and pointed them to the Ionity charges
This was just in effect all seen in 2 days of driving, it's still a challenge for many out there seemingly.
Yay, im going to France next week in my IPACE. Joy to look forward to!Full blown row at Folkestone Supercharger over a charging spot (2 Tesla owners)
An ID4 charging (right side charge port) on a Supercharger and me having to point out to around 5 Tesla's that they couldn't charge in the seemingly empty spot as the ID4 was using 'their' handle
Many many instances on the French autoroutes of non EV's just flat out ICE'ing Superchargers
A few instances of ICE'ing charge points in Germany despite clear signage
Two instances of non Tesla's trying to charge at Superchargers that weren't open to non-Tesla's. In these cases I politely showed them how to use the app to see what was open and pointed them to the Ionity charges
This was just in effect all seen in 2 days of driving, it's still a challenge for many out there seemingly.
Good work on your efforts to help though, fair play.
JonnyVTEC said:
RobbyJ said:
I've just got back from a road trip to Germany and I witnessed quite a bit of stupidity:
Full blown row at Folkestone Supercharger over a charging spot (2 Tesla owners)
An ID4 charging (right side charge port) on a Supercharger and me having to point out to around 5 Tesla's that they couldn't charge in the seemingly empty spot as the ID4 was using 'their' handle
Many many instances on the French autoroutes of non EV's just flat out ICE'ing Superchargers
A few instances of ICE'ing charge points in Germany despite clear signage
Two instances of non Tesla's trying to charge at Superchargers that weren't open to non-Tesla's. In these cases I politely showed them how to use the app to see what was open and pointed them to the Ionity charges
This was just in effect all seen in 2 days of driving, it's still a challenge for many out there seemingly.
Yay, im going to France next week in my IPACE. Joy to look forward to!Full blown row at Folkestone Supercharger over a charging spot (2 Tesla owners)
An ID4 charging (right side charge port) on a Supercharger and me having to point out to around 5 Tesla's that they couldn't charge in the seemingly empty spot as the ID4 was using 'their' handle
Many many instances on the French autoroutes of non EV's just flat out ICE'ing Superchargers
A few instances of ICE'ing charge points in Germany despite clear signage
Two instances of non Tesla's trying to charge at Superchargers that weren't open to non-Tesla's. In these cases I politely showed them how to use the app to see what was open and pointed them to the Ionity charges
This was just in effect all seen in 2 days of driving, it's still a challenge for many out there seemingly.
Good work on your efforts to help though, fair play.
rewild said:
It's not that the charger network is bad, or that people are stupid, it's a bit of both.
I have absolutely no issues with dealing with finding or using public chargers, yet my parents are driven to despair by it. The public charger network DOES work, but you need to be prepared for it to present issues and you to have to understand how to solve them.
If you don't instinctively know how the car is talking to the charger, the charger is talking to a server, the server is talking to the phone app, the phone app is talking to the credit card company, and how any one of those things might need fixed before the car will charge, then any sort of error, wrong sequence of buttons, change of wind direction could scupper it, you're going to have bother.
If you don't know that not all cars have the same plug shape, or that some chargers are faster than others and how to identify them, or that every car has a different charge-speed curve, or that every charging network has different costs, you can easily run into issues.
That's not to mention all the stuff that ISN'T written down anywhere, like sharing a charger that somebody else is already using (probably halving their charge speed) or how to choose the right Tesla charger based on their ABC123 numbers based on who is already charging, or queuing etiquette if all chargers are full.. none of that is explained to anyone who buys an EV.
Think about it, the first DC 50kW charger was installed in 2013. That's only 9 years ago, and the standards barely covered anything other than plug shape and basic communication.
As the standards developed (and the best standard floated to the top) everything is getting better, and it's already as easy as it could be if you use, say, Fastned who support Plug and Charge, and have a really good app, but there are a lot of EVs out there that were designed before ISO/IEC 15118 took off. It's a mess. The apps are terrible. The communication is problematic. The chargers just switch themselves off if anything goes wrong (instead of helping resolve the issue). It all works, but it's not finished being developed. Modern cars are starting to support some form of Plug and Charge (so there's no buttons or screens or apps or any nonsense to deal with at the charger), but it'll be another 9 years before that's the norm and everyone does it properly and stops trying to go their own way and reinvent the wheel. There are a load of crappy old chargers out there from companies who had to find their own way, and had to work with a load of cars not built to the still emerging standards. We've got the interoperablility written down on paper now, the Japs are coming on board too, so we're on the road to a unified plug type, a unified standard, and no buttons and screens to worry about.
9 years from now, it'll be as easy for my parents to charge as it is for me now.
Meanwhile, it's like a Linux laptop vs a Macbook. They both work, but you gran can only use one of them.
Interesting points, is there a go to place to find out what all the acronyms stand for, the etiquette of queuing, which chargers work best for your car and which are most cost effective?I have absolutely no issues with dealing with finding or using public chargers, yet my parents are driven to despair by it. The public charger network DOES work, but you need to be prepared for it to present issues and you to have to understand how to solve them.
If you don't instinctively know how the car is talking to the charger, the charger is talking to a server, the server is talking to the phone app, the phone app is talking to the credit card company, and how any one of those things might need fixed before the car will charge, then any sort of error, wrong sequence of buttons, change of wind direction could scupper it, you're going to have bother.
If you don't know that not all cars have the same plug shape, or that some chargers are faster than others and how to identify them, or that every car has a different charge-speed curve, or that every charging network has different costs, you can easily run into issues.
That's not to mention all the stuff that ISN'T written down anywhere, like sharing a charger that somebody else is already using (probably halving their charge speed) or how to choose the right Tesla charger based on their ABC123 numbers based on who is already charging, or queuing etiquette if all chargers are full.. none of that is explained to anyone who buys an EV.
Think about it, the first DC 50kW charger was installed in 2013. That's only 9 years ago, and the standards barely covered anything other than plug shape and basic communication.
As the standards developed (and the best standard floated to the top) everything is getting better, and it's already as easy as it could be if you use, say, Fastned who support Plug and Charge, and have a really good app, but there are a lot of EVs out there that were designed before ISO/IEC 15118 took off. It's a mess. The apps are terrible. The communication is problematic. The chargers just switch themselves off if anything goes wrong (instead of helping resolve the issue). It all works, but it's not finished being developed. Modern cars are starting to support some form of Plug and Charge (so there's no buttons or screens or apps or any nonsense to deal with at the charger), but it'll be another 9 years before that's the norm and everyone does it properly and stops trying to go their own way and reinvent the wheel. There are a load of crappy old chargers out there from companies who had to find their own way, and had to work with a load of cars not built to the still emerging standards. We've got the interoperablility written down on paper now, the Japs are coming on board too, so we're on the road to a unified plug type, a unified standard, and no buttons and screens to worry about.
9 years from now, it'll be as easy for my parents to charge as it is for me now.
Meanwhile, it's like a Linux laptop vs a Macbook. They both work, but you gran can only use one of them.
I helped a girl on a petrol station forecourt the other day, after watching her looking totally confused for the entire time it took me to fill up. We take it for granted that these everyday tasks are simple, but to the initiated it’s anything but.
OP - I think the reality is that the early adopters were willing participants and enjoyed the exclusivity of being in the EV club and polite with others enjoying the experience. Probably the type of person who wants to make some sort of positive environmental change and embraced it as a stepping stone to a greener lifestyle.
A lot of people jumping on the bandwagon now aren’t cut from that cloth and have a typical ignorance and feel they should be privileged - you see it in all walks of British life. Money does not mean being classy.
I too have witnessed all the things you have stated, and I personally feel that there should be a reporting system for those not adhering to Agreed Rules - these can easily be enforced at all charge points. Anyone breaching the rules gets an escalating fine say £75 for every 15mins up to an hour. Then £250 an hour thereafter. People can be reported by app and tickets issued remotely. Pretty sure that would change behaviours. Unfortunately the risk is that the scummy element of society (probably who drive ICE and dislike EV) could damage cars that are charging. Think of it as another them/us or have/have not attitude of the rogue elements of society.
I went to charge in Devon last week and two ICE cars were parked in the other lot two EV charging bays. I did for a second consider parking in front of them to block them in but then though I’d probably get a ticket for not parking in a bay and come back to a damaged car….
A lot of people jumping on the bandwagon now aren’t cut from that cloth and have a typical ignorance and feel they should be privileged - you see it in all walks of British life. Money does not mean being classy.
I too have witnessed all the things you have stated, and I personally feel that there should be a reporting system for those not adhering to Agreed Rules - these can easily be enforced at all charge points. Anyone breaching the rules gets an escalating fine say £75 for every 15mins up to an hour. Then £250 an hour thereafter. People can be reported by app and tickets issued remotely. Pretty sure that would change behaviours. Unfortunately the risk is that the scummy element of society (probably who drive ICE and dislike EV) could damage cars that are charging. Think of it as another them/us or have/have not attitude of the rogue elements of society.
I went to charge in Devon last week and two ICE cars were parked in the other lot two EV charging bays. I did for a second consider parking in front of them to block them in but then though I’d probably get a ticket for not parking in a bay and come back to a damaged car….
Edited by W12GT on Friday 26th August 12:54
Blue62 said:
Interesting points, is there a go to place to find out what all the acronyms stand for, the etiquette of queuing, which chargers work best for your car and which are most cost effective?
I helped a girl on a petrol station forecourt the other day, after watching her looking totally confused for the entire time it took me to fill up. We take it for granted that these everyday tasks are simple, but to the initiated it’s anything but.
Yes, google.I helped a girl on a petrol station forecourt the other day, after watching her looking totally confused for the entire time it took me to fill up. We take it for granted that these everyday tasks are simple, but to the initiated it’s anything but.
Honestly, do people really expect to have everything spoon fed to them in 2022? Why would you not spend some time researching this stuff before taking on an EV?
The charging etiquette thing is just basic courtesy, which is something too many people lack and isn't going to be something you can teach with an online article unfortunately.
Having just invested in an Electric scooter I am going to be one of those muppets that annoys other EV users.
So far I've just plugged in every night (13A) for the commute but there will come a time where I need to use a public charger. To date my sole investment in the learning process is "yep there's a strange looking cable in the boot, I may need that at some time".
I have no idea whatsoever what capacity my vehicle is capable of charging at. I have no apps on my phone. I will merely have to walk round the various chargers hoping to find a compatible socket on one of them.
The terminology in this whole EV lark is a bloody minefield compared to looking for 95 or 98 Ron.
There's no point in finding out now as I will probably have forgotten when the need arises.
So far I've just plugged in every night (13A) for the commute but there will come a time where I need to use a public charger. To date my sole investment in the learning process is "yep there's a strange looking cable in the boot, I may need that at some time".
I have no idea whatsoever what capacity my vehicle is capable of charging at. I have no apps on my phone. I will merely have to walk round the various chargers hoping to find a compatible socket on one of them.
The terminology in this whole EV lark is a bloody minefield compared to looking for 95 or 98 Ron.
There's no point in finding out now as I will probably have forgotten when the need arises.
Human stupidity to be honest runs to those people that think EVs are for everyone and that it will all be fine driving them without significant changes to infrastructure.
Some charging bays put in recently on a road nearby, they took away a number of drop off spaces opposite a primary school and made them into charge points. Outcome? Parents use them to drop off kids in their ICE cars. Some people park their EVs there for days just using it as a parking space.
Some charging bays put in recently on a road nearby, they took away a number of drop off spaces opposite a primary school and made them into charge points. Outcome? Parents use them to drop off kids in their ICE cars. Some people park their EVs there for days just using it as a parking space.
SWoll said:
Yes, google.
Honestly, do people really expect to have everything spoon fed to them in 2022? Why would you not spend some time researching this stuff before taking on an EV?
The charging etiquette thing is just basic courtesy, which is something too many people lack and isn't going to be something you can teach with an online article unfortunately.
I don't own an EV and am at the start of my research, there's plenty of information out there but some of it is contradictory and some of it has a language of its own, including acronyms, which makes the process more laborious than it needs to be. As you say basic courtesy is somewhat lacking these days. Honestly, do people really expect to have everything spoon fed to them in 2022? Why would you not spend some time researching this stuff before taking on an EV?
The charging etiquette thing is just basic courtesy, which is something too many people lack and isn't going to be something you can teach with an online article unfortunately.
Carlososos said:
TheRainMaker said:
Our local leisure centre has 4 EV chargers close to the front door and two a fair distance away, nearly every weekend we go the four by the door are always taken by EV's not plugged in, and the two further away never have anyone parked in them.
People are morons.
That’s worse. A ev charging spot taken by a ev not charging should be towed away. People are morons.
Oh and selfish stupid people are a problem too
Blue62 said:
I don't own an EV and am at the start of my research, there's plenty of information out there but some of it is contradictory and some of it has a language of its own, including acronyms, which makes the process more laborious than it needs to be.
That's an understatement, it's a nightmare. Same vehicle, two different reports with completely different terminology. The only way you really know is to turn up to a charging station and have a go. The old pro's may think you're a muppet and it's oh so obvious with a bit of research but maybe they've just forgotten their first few times.
Just on my last day of holidaying in New Forest and Cornwall and took the decision to drive the company EV here. Covered over 1200 miles and haven't once had a problem with charging.
Tesla got it so right with the Supercharger network. But I also used some public chargers (Pod Point, Mer) and had no issues either.
Tesla got it so right with the Supercharger network. But I also used some public chargers (Pod Point, Mer) and had no issues either.
C.A.R. said:
Just on my last day of holidaying in New Forest and Cornwall and took the decision to drive the company EV here. Covered over 1200 miles and haven't once had a problem with charging.
I should probably make it clear that I’ve travelled from my home in Yorkshire to Northumberland, then to the Lake District, and I’m now in Lytham, and I’ve not actually struggled to charge the car once. I’ve just witnessed a lot of idiocy along the way, none of which has directly affected me. Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff