How will Porsche price the new Cayman EV?
Discussion
b0rk said:
plfrench said:
The market for an EV 2 seater driver focussed coupe may be smaller than the ICE equivalent for now, however Porsche’s opportunity for market share will be far higher initially. They won’t have any of the usual Lotus, Alpine, BMW, Audi competition at least to begin with. I think being first mover in this space (ignoring the Cyberster as I don’t think many would be cross-shopping) will bring a sizeable advantage for those out there who are intrigued by what an EV sports car can offer.
I’d disagree being the “best” EV sports car in a market of one isn’t going to sustain the model once others show up over the 8 to 10 year model life. IMHO it needs to work and be competitive as a sports car not just an EV one. Dynamics, practicality and comfort will be the benchmark measures. It doesn’t need initially to set silly ring times but be a usable and practical proposition for drive outs, weekends away and when the owner wants commuting.
It needs to stack up well against ICE Z4, Supra, Emira, A110, Merc SL and Corvette. Possibly even 911 T and S.
Newc said:
The additional tax breaks for EVs are surely not going to survive the first Starmer budget next year.
The next administration probably Starmer / Labour are going to need to tackle the vehicle fuel duty problems with EV’s. Even if by some completely unexpected event Rishi / Tories managed to form the next administration they can’t kick this can any further down the road. It’s already been announced by the current administration in the 2022 autumn statement that EV’s will pay vehicle tax from 2025 at the standard rate and new ones over £40k will pay the additional tax.
survivalist said:
But if Labour even the playing field between BEV and ICE who in their right mind is going to buy BEVs unless the manufacturers drop the purchase price of BEVs? Currently it makes sense because there are cheaper to run and. (on company car schemes, salary sacrifice , business owners etc) no more expensive to purchase than an ICE vehicle. Loads of people already avoiding them due to fears around range (real or perceived) so levelling the field won’t help sales. Might force a few manufactures to leave tags UK market though.
That’s exactly where the ZEV Mandate comes in. Forces the percentage of EVs to incrementally increase between now and 2035. To achieve their targets manufactures could increase ICE & hybrid prices to make them less appealing, decrease EV prices to make them more appealing or cap the number of ICE & hybrids they sell to make the ratios work. I think we may already have seen some EV registrations from the end of this year delayed into 2024 to help give things a jump start for their targets.plfrench said:
survivalist said:
But if Labour even the playing field between BEV and ICE who in their right mind is going to buy BEVs unless the manufacturers drop the purchase price of BEVs? Currently it makes sense because there are cheaper to run and. (on company car schemes, salary sacrifice , business owners etc) no more expensive to purchase than an ICE vehicle. Loads of people already avoiding them due to fears around range (real or perceived) so levelling the field won’t help sales. Might force a few manufactures to leave tags UK market though.
That’s exactly where the ZEV Mandate comes in. Forces the percentage of EVs to incrementally increase between now and 2035. To achieve their targets manufactures could increase ICE & hybrid prices to make them less appealing, decrease EV prices to make them more appealing or cap the number of ICE & hybrids they sell to make the ratios work. I think we may already have seen some EV registrations from the end of this year delayed into 2024 to help give things a jump start for their targets.Personally, I think the tax breaks will remain regardless of which bunch of useless morons are in Downing Street.
Personally, I just want someone release a fun, electric hot hatch. Would be perfect for local journeys.
delta0 said:
Labour said they would reinstate the 2030 ban on ICE new car sales. They will also incentivise EV adoption with cash subsidies. This indicates to me they will be more aggressive against ICE than the current government.
It wasn’t really an ICE ban, though, it just required all ICE to be plug-in hybrids. Murph7355 said:
kambites said:
I though the new boxster was going to use a platform with a mid mounted "trunk" style battery? If they use a generic skateboard style platform that will be pretty rubbish.
Why?The skateboard design keeps the weight low and well distributed. They could possibly hollow out the seating position to keep that low(er).
I also believe that Porsche (although it's always hard to tell what's official and what's a random guess by motoring "news" outlets) have produced conceptual sketches of the new platform and it has a centrally mounted chest battery like the Lotus one. I think it would be a crying shame if Porsche are forced to pick up a generic platform designed primarily for SUVs and big saloons.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 27th December 09:58
kambites said:
They could, and indeed that's exactly what Caterham are doing with their EV sports car, but I can't see the average Boxster/Cayman buyer being happy with their feet being higher than their seat. I also can't see VAG developing a generic mass-market skateboard platform capable of such a feature.
I also believe that Porsche (although it's always hard to tell what's official and what's a random guess by motoring "news" outlets) have produced conceptual sketches of the new platform and it has a centrally mounted chest battery like the Lotus one. I think it would be a crying shame if Porsche are forced to pick up a generic platform designed primarily for SUVs and big saloons.
It's the way things will roll, IMO. Developing bespoke platforms is not cheap, especially for relatively low volume cars.I also believe that Porsche (although it's always hard to tell what's official and what's a random guess by motoring "news" outlets) have produced conceptual sketches of the new platform and it has a centrally mounted chest battery like the Lotus one. I think it would be a crying shame if Porsche are forced to pick up a generic platform designed primarily for SUVs and big saloons.
I suspect it would be easier to adapt modular battery packs than the rest, but who knows
Either way, I don't think I care massively, as long as a car drives well and feels like it "should". I don't feel like I'm sat that high up in my Taycan, for example, despite battery placement. And I suspect having all that mass lower down in the car is a big bonus - it certainly handles well.
delta0 said:
Labour said they would reinstate the 2030 ban on ICE new car sales. They will also incentivise EV adoption with cash subsidies. This indicates to me they will be more aggressive against ICE than the current government.
With the amount of moaning the industry did when the current buffoons back pedalled on dates, I can imagine that going down really well. Especially with another GE being needed before 2030 
As for incentives, I guess non-doms can watch out for even more hits to pay for yet another policy. Idiots the lot of them.
Regardless, I still reckon 75k-140k for the Cayman. When did cars all get so expensive? Makes me feel old
Murph7355 said:
It's the way things will roll, IMO. Developing bespoke platforms is not cheap, especially for relatively low volume cars.
I suspect it would be easier to adapt modular battery packs than the rest, but who knows
I'd guess based on previous form that the Mission R and GT4 ePerformance running concepts are closely related to the final 718 EV conceptually in terms of size, motor and battery placement, even if the production car won't use exotic materials. So battery modules located in front and behind the occupants with the platform probably being modified from MMB. Porsche have announced that they'll make 718 EV and 911 on the same line at Zuffenhausen so there must logically be some production commonality to make them both on the same track. I suspect it would be easier to adapt modular battery packs than the rest, but who knows
From memory isn't the J1 platform under Taycan evolved from MSB rather than clean sheet bespoke thing.
b0rk said:
From memory isn't the J1 platform under Taycan evolved from MSB rather than clean sheet bespoke thing.
Yes it is but I'm not sure there's such a thing as a "clear sheet" platform these days, especially not from a company the size of VAG. I think J1 shares all of it's suspension geometry with MSB, but obviously the centre section is different to take the battery and the "engine" and "diff" mounts have been changed to support motors instead. I don't know if they share a bulkhead design but I would guess not since P1 doesn't need the transmission hole. Murph7355 said:
Either way, I don't think I care massively, as long as a car drives well and feels like it "should". I don't feel like I'm sat that high up in my Taycan, for example, despite battery placement. And I suspect having all that mass lower down in the car is a big bonus - it certainly handles well.
Interesting, because to me the driving position in the Audi version felt really odd. Sort of stretched out like a sports car but sitting at the height you'd expect of an SUV. delta0 said:
Very true. 2035 is only 5 years later. I wouldn’t expect much of a revolution in hybrids beyond what we have already. It does at least appear Labour are more focused on sustainability.
The ZEV mandate requires 80% of new cars to be ZEV by 2030.The remaining 20% of ICE-based cars will almost all be plug-in hybrids.
Banning pure ICE after 2030 will achieve the sum total of naff all.
It's a political football Boris invented to pretend we weren't beholden to EU policy.
GT9 said:
It's a political football Boris invented to pretend we weren't beholden to EU policy.
The 2030 date was always pretty much entirely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The combination of the ZEV mandate ramp up and the 2035 date (which is arguably just the last step in the ZEV mandate) was always the relevant thing. The concern from mainstream manufacturers about the abandoning of the 2030 date was more worry that the government is meddling with things which were meant to be set in stone for political points, than any sort of concern about that particular date.
Edited by kambites on Friday 29th December 10:33
kambites said:
Interesting, because to me the driving position in the Audi version felt really odd. Sort of stretched out like a sports car but sitting at the height you'd expect of an SUV.
I imagine the seats will make some difference, in addition to size.I have to have my seat very low and reclined no matter what car I'm in (6'4" salad dodger). I have the 18 way seats in the Porsche so am snug enough. And the way the dash/wheel are set feels just right.
It's no Caterham. But it's no XC90 either. It's nearer the former than the latter IMO.
kambites said:
Murph7355 said:
kambites said:
I though the new boxster was going to use a platform with a mid mounted "trunk" style battery? If they use a generic skateboard style platform that will be pretty rubbish.
Why?The skateboard design keeps the weight low and well distributed. They could possibly hollow out the seating position to keep that low(er).
I also believe that Porsche (although it's always hard to tell what's official and what's a random guess by motoring "news" outlets) have produced conceptual sketches of the new platform and it has a centrally mounted chest battery like the Lotus one. I think it would be a crying shame if Porsche are forced to pick up a generic platform designed primarily for SUVs and big saloons.
It remains to be seen what exactly 'E-core' means, but all descriptions to date have referred to a chest arrangement behind the seats.
"Using a novel battery arrangement referred to as the ‘e-core’ layout, Porsche’s entry-level sports EVs will offer as low a seating position and centre of gravity as possible, in line with their dynamic billing."
Source: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsch...
GT9 said:
The Porsche E-core battery layout has been publicised for several years now, I'd be quite surprised if they can revert to skateboard at this late stage.
It remains to be seen what exactly 'E-core' means, but all descriptions to date have referred to a chest arrangement behind the seats.
That's the bunny I was thinking of. It remains to be seen what exactly 'E-core' means, but all descriptions to date have referred to a chest arrangement behind the seats.
kambites said:
Interesting, because to me the driving position in the Audi version felt really odd. Sort of stretched out like a sports car but sitting at the height you'd expect of an SUV.
The eTron GT is 1413m high, so lower than something like a 5 series and on a par with the 8 series. As a comparison the eTron SUV is 1629mm and the iX 1695mm.Murph7355 said:
I guess that depends on whether you see the Panamera and Taycan as being equivalent 
(I was loaned one of the former...and don't).
Pretty much identical in size, performance, practicality and equipment and made by the same manufacturer. Spent time in both and whilst the Panamera feels a little plusher there's not a huge amount in it. (I was loaned one of the former...and don't).
SWoll said:
kambites said:
Interesting, because to me the driving position in the Audi version felt really odd. Sort of stretched out like a sports car but sitting at the height you'd expect of an SUV.
The eTron GT is 1413m high, so lower than something like a 5 series and on a par with the 8 series. As a comparison the eTron SUV is 1629mm and the iX 1695mm.Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff