Electric cars up to 3x likelier to hit pedestrians than ICE
Discussion
GolfDragon said:
Most electric cars will have City safe or pedestrian detection as stipulated by manufacturing standards these days as the majority are a lot newer than ICE cars.
The early EVs probably don’t have this technology but I’d imagine those from 2020 and later will have this tech.
What you do notice today is that if you're behind some EVs waiting to cross Oxford St then you're screwed as the only way to be able to drive across once the lights have gone green is to rev the engine and start moving towards the pedestrians. That's how those kind of junctions have always worked. Half the pedestrians will just keep stepping out until they notice the car whereupon they stop. Not being able to make a noise to alert them was one loss but now some cars are programmed to actually not move then you can get stuck for several light cycles as the car at the front is completely trapped. The early EVs probably don’t have this technology but I’d imagine those from 2020 and later will have this tech.
It's such an interesting and common phenomenon that I now drive further to particular junctions where this doesn't happen which tends to mean going to the west of Marble Arch or east of Tottenham court Rd.
And for the chaps in London who like walking out in front of a car and eyeballing the driver to make them give way discovering that cars are being programmed to do that for them is nirvana. Just like Londoners will now freely walk behind a moving reversing car because they've worked out that the car will start screaming at the driver who will stop so there is no longer a need to wait for that driver.
It is a problem definitely. A neighbour has an Ora Funky Cat (or whatever the new model name is) and seems to delight in shooting off from her drive staring straight ahead, oblivious to everything around her. I have had a few near misses, both on foot and in our car as she appears from behind a wall at warp speed. Another neighbour has a Tesla and seems much more aware of the acceleration and silence of his car, but even that has made me jump when it silently appears behind me when I am walking across the car park. The absolute worst though are the electric Amazon vans. They shoot round our estate like someone has turned the sound off, although from the state of them they are having plenty of accidents.
GT9 said:
Oilchange said:
You’re funny.
2.5 tonnes of metal that can accelerate like a bullet, silently, in an estate where children live and play is a recipe for disaster.
Obscure reason 74 (b) why EVs are a global menace and hopefully the final nail in the coffin for these manifestations of Beelzebub?2.5 tonnes of metal that can accelerate like a bullet, silently, in an estate where children live and play is a recipe for disaster.
I don’t think them being silent (has this been addressed?) or having self drive functions are a good idea, amongst other things.
DaveCWK said:
CheesecakeRunner said:
I was surprised to see The Guardian run that this morning, given how pro-EV they are.
Being pro-EV doesn't mean just ignoring anything that doesn't support your chosen view - that's a position of 0 credibility.This article seems entirely logical to me.
The assumption that the Guardian must be 100% pro EV at all cost probably stems from the development of a devout belief that EVs are political and that they are left wing and tools of the oppressing elite.
As it happens the article is very silly with the author making clearly unsubstantiated leaps to link datasets to fit their narrative and where the core article it is constructed around is really badly and obviously so flawed as to be meaningless and the chap is clearly throwing it out to help with a latest funding round.
What we do know is that pedestrians in urban environments will step into the road without looking and relying on other senses which is why they do have a habit of then hitting cyclists and cars and it does seem logical that the more silent the vehicle then potentially the more likely they are to hit it. Anyone who has spent time in places like London is fully aware of the link between pedestrian awareness and sound. It seems likely that the inventor of the car horn some 130+ years ago had worked this out.
Go and chuck terrible minicab drivers operating around drunk people in city centres into the mix and you'd need to account for this datasets switch from diesel to hybrid over a very short period in places like London.
In short, it's a silly article based around some silly research but what is also just as silly is taking the Guardian's left wing stance and somehow linking that to being rabidly pro EV.
Oilchange said:
I happen to think EVs are a good idea. In the right environment and under the right conditions.
I don’t think them being silent (has this been addressed?) or having self drive functions are a good idea, amongst other things.
Much as we may mock the fake exhaust noises the electric Abarth 500 makes, at least you would hear it coming. The two cars I mentioned in my previous post (Ora and Tesla) both make a low humming noise, but with any kind of background noise, you just cannot hear them. I don’t think them being silent (has this been addressed?) or having self drive functions are a good idea, amongst other things.
Red9zero said:
It is a problem definitely. A neighbour has an Ora Funky Cat (or whatever the new model name is) and seems to delight in shooting off from her drive staring straight ahead, oblivious to everything around her.
I think people like that may be a liability in any car, but I can see what you mean.The noise acts as a reminder to pedestrians there is a vehicle around, but also to the driver.
Plus, if you drive a manual car its a bit more of a process involving clutch and gears, in an EV its plant foot, accelerate and we moan about the lack of soul/character and how it matters to us petrolheads, maybe the non enthusiasts miss that aural feedback and fill the gap in stimulation by getting more feedback from acceleration. Plus most of them are pretty rapid and comparatively heavy, a Funky Cat does sixty in 8 seconds and is about 1700 ish kilos, a lot have massive traction from 4wd and sophisticated traction control systems so are unstoppable compared to say a 1.3 Fiesta the Funky Cat driver would have had 30 years ago.
I have to drive my car slowly round town as folk will have already decided I am a knob based on car choice (Fiesta ST) and I do not want to confirm that to them so its like driving round on Eggshells, until of course there is nobody around, so for me its self limiting, not sure if it was pretty much silent I would go faster consciously but subconsciously, freed of that desire to go under the radar, to not offend or alarm anyone, maybe.
An EV being hoofed makes some noise but it pales next to something petrol and performance oriented, saw a Polestar something or other getting spanked locally, god, it was like it teleported, a mate did something similar when driving a Bentley Supersports on our road and a neighbour came out and b
ked him it was so loud.Its a bit like these Sur-Rons, basically a moderately powerful electric Motocross bike, a big part of what stops folk riding unlicensed crossers on the road (or used to before they got all bold and started wearing balaclavas) is the massive racket they make, you cant go anywhere without announcing your presence to anyone in a couple of miles radius, but a Sur-Ron does much the same thing but is to all intents and purposes absolutely silent.
I think the current ownership demographics, range anxiety, relatively low numbers and some of the systems are keeping a lid on the potential for accidents, but when the first Model 3s for example migrate down to different demographics, discovering electric style thrust for the first time and not having the common sense/concern that the original owners had, we may get problems.
Oilchange said:
I happen to think EVs are a good idea. In the right environment and under the right conditions.
I don’t think them being silent (has this been addressed?) or having self drive functions are a good idea, amongst other things.
Fair enough.I don’t think them being silent (has this been addressed?) or having self drive functions are a good idea, amongst other things.
These concerns are easily enough addressed with technology or in the case of self-drive, not using the technology.
Eliminating wasted energy is of course a primary goal, and given noise is a tiny proportion of that, it makes sense to add it back in where appropriate, either for pleasure or safety.
The 'won't somebody think of the children' argument is such a hot potato when it comes to EVs, e.g. cobalt kids, respiratory disease, global warming/future generations and now we have kids being flattened to add to the list.
I must say picking up my partner from work in Manchester city centre at 7 or 8 pm on a Saturday in my 2016 PHEV with no sound generation, this article comes as no surprise to me. The combination of distracted, perhaps slightly intoxicated people and a totally silent car isn’t a great one. I do find it funny creeping up on people and making them jump though. As already mentioned, a pointless article as the law was changed in 2017 to adress this issue anyway.
GT9 said:
Fair enough.
These concerns are easily enough addressed with technology or in the case of self-drive, not using the technology.
Eliminating wasted energy is of course a primary goal, and given noise is a tiny proportion of that, it makes sense to add it back in where appropriate, either for pleasure or safety.
The 'won't somebody think of the children' argument is such a hot potato when it comes to EVs, e.g. cobalt kids, respiratory disease, global warming/future generations and now we have kids being flattened to add to the list.
We have also always known about the sound issue whether it's horns being fitted to cars, commercials having speakers for reversing and for years EV's quietness has been a discussed concern and many appear to have been fitted with noise makers for this reason. These concerns are easily enough addressed with technology or in the case of self-drive, not using the technology.
Eliminating wasted energy is of course a primary goal, and given noise is a tiny proportion of that, it makes sense to add it back in where appropriate, either for pleasure or safety.
The 'won't somebody think of the children' argument is such a hot potato when it comes to EVs, e.g. cobalt kids, respiratory disease, global warming/future generations and now we have kids being flattened to add to the list.
I think valid areas of concern tend to be more that all cars are beginning to be fitted with technology to give pedestrians their legal right of way and that this will end up manifestly changing the long standing interaction and relationship between driver and pedestrian where the driver was aided considerably by the fear pedestrians had of being hit. And the other area of concern is probably that of drivers who have spent a lifetime with slow ICE suddenly having a vehicle capable of supercar performance accidentally.
In short, the steady change of vehicle type and technology is going to show up needs for human behaviour to adapt accordingly. Which it will do as that's why humans are at the top of the food chain but they may not always adapt as quickly as the tools they use.
DonkeyApple said:
In short, the steady change of vehicle type and technology is going to show up needs for human behaviour to adapt accordingly. Which it will do as that's why humans are at the top of the food chain but they may not always adapt as quickly as the tools they use.
The answer, as always, is e-fuel.No behaviour changes needed.
Most concerning of all is the use of such an awkward word as likelier when more likely does the job perfectly.
DonkeyApple said:
GolfDragon said:
Most electric cars will have City safe or pedestrian detection as stipulated by manufacturing standards these days as the majority are a lot newer than ICE cars.
The early EVs probably don’t have this technology but I’d imagine those from 2020 and later will have this tech.
What you do notice today is that if you're behind some EVs waiting to cross Oxford St then you're screwed as the only way to be able to drive across once the lights have gone green is to rev the engine and start moving towards the pedestrians. That's how those kind of junctions have always worked. Half the pedestrians will just keep stepping out until they notice the car whereupon they stop. Not being able to make a noise to alert them was one loss but now some cars are programmed to actually not move then you can get stuck for several light cycles as the car at the front is completely trapped. The early EVs probably don’t have this technology but I’d imagine those from 2020 and later will have this tech.
Indeed as do all other cars. And yet the system that has evolved at these types of junctions hasn't been to blow the horn but to start moving the vehicle forward. So why would it transpire that moving the large object works better than just making a noise? It's a valid question as one works almost infallibly while the other doesn't.
The Guardian should take care while pulling on this thread.
There is another, much larger, section of silent vehicle users in urban areas that could be called into question.
Saddling their urban bike-riding massive with spoke clickers would not go down well.
But it would be a very cheap and effective modification.
There is another, much larger, section of silent vehicle users in urban areas that could be called into question.
Saddling their urban bike-riding massive with spoke clickers would not go down well.
But it would be a very cheap and effective modification.
Oilchange said:
I happen to think EVs are a good idea. In the right environment and under the right conditions.
I don’t think them being silent (has this been addressed?) or having self drive functions are a good idea, amongst other things.
Has this been addressed?I don’t think them being silent (has this been addressed?) or having self drive functions are a good idea, amongst other things.
Yes, in the very first post in this thread.
swisstoni said:
The Guardian should take care while pulling on this thread.
There is another, much larger, section of silent vehicle users in urban areas that could be called into question.
Saddling their urban bike-riding massive with spoke clickers would not go down well.
But it would be a very cheap and effective modification.
We could get pedestrians to walk around with trumpets as well. There is another, much larger, section of silent vehicle users in urban areas that could be called into question.
Saddling their urban bike-riding massive with spoke clickers would not go down well.
But it would be a very cheap and effective modification.
Tindersticks said:
swisstoni said:
The Guardian should take care while pulling on this thread.
There is another, much larger, section of silent vehicle users in urban areas that could be called into question.
Saddling their urban bike-riding massive with spoke clickers would not go down well.
But it would be a very cheap and effective modification.
We could get pedestrians to walk around with trumpets as well. There is another, much larger, section of silent vehicle users in urban areas that could be called into question.
Saddling their urban bike-riding massive with spoke clickers would not go down well.
But it would be a very cheap and effective modification.
SkodaIan said:
It looks like hybrids were also included in the 'study', so the reason for the difference will probably actually be Toyota Prius minicabs. The drivers of these don't tend to have a great reputation for driving well, but probably more importantly, there are a lot of them driving round in city centres full of drunk pedestrians at night.....
That alone would do it, and the unsuitability for most EVs 8 years ago for anything other than urban low mileage use.Pointless study, typical of science and technology reporting that they even bothered running an article on it.
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