So who's getting an i3?
Discussion
MarshPhantom said:
One of the main benefits of a company car is having free fuel for private use. If it only costs £3 to charge you aren't making much of a saving and it will be on charge at evenings/weekends when you want use it privately.
Will you have another car for private use?
Actually that's nonsense, there is no such thing as free private fuel. The benefit in kind just for private fuel for my current car would be £7,385 a year which I would be taxed on.Will you have another car for private use?
Yes, I am keeping my M3, so will also save on tyres, servicing etc.
RossP said:
MarshPhantom said:
One of the main benefits of a company car is having free fuel for private use. If it only costs £3 to charge you aren't making much of a saving and it will be on charge at evenings/weekends when you want use it privately.
Will you have another car for private use?
Actually that's nonsense, there is no such thing as free private fuel. The benefit in kind just for private fuel for my current car would be £7,385.Will you have another car for private use?
Edited by MarshPhantom on Sunday 24th November 17:35
MarshPhantom said:
Not nonsense, if you use more in fuel than you pay in tax that is free fuel. It seems unlikely you will be doing loads of private miles in your i3. The last company car I had (2.0 Mondeo) cost around £120 quid a month all in with all the fuel you could ever need.
Actually it is nonsense as you said private fuel is free which it isn't. It's a taxable benefit. On a 2.0 diesel Mondeo, the fuel would cost you £77 a month on a 20% tax rate or £155 at 40%. That's not very free is it?Edited by MarshPhantom on Sunday 24th November 17:35
All of my commuting is private mileage. The rest of my mileage will be ferrying the kids around and shopping trips. In reality there will be virtually no company mileage in the i3 as my customers are too far away.
You make a lot of statements based on no information!
Edited by RossP on Sunday 24th November 18:41
Edited by RossP on Sunday 24th November 18:41
Another thing to consider...quite a few people run their own company. So it isn't free then either. Just means you've paid for fuel out of the company rather than your own pocket. Whether its your own or a public company if you use fuel the taxman is going to be adding a nice big chunk to your running costs and reducing the company profits. And the tax on electric isn't going to spring in out of the blue.
I actually think it's going to be hard to tax EVs fuel. Let's assume the government bought in a rule saying you have to have a separate metered supply for charging an EV. What's to stop you running most nights charges from a different plug socket? Ok your neighbours might grass if they suspect it. But for quite a long while yet I don't think there's anything to worry about. Not till say 1/10 of all cars on the road are electric.
I actually think it's going to be hard to tax EVs fuel. Let's assume the government bought in a rule saying you have to have a separate metered supply for charging an EV. What's to stop you running most nights charges from a different plug socket? Ok your neighbours might grass if they suspect it. But for quite a long while yet I don't think there's anything to worry about. Not till say 1/10 of all cars on the road are electric.
v8250 said:
I sometimes despair with the fickleness of the current car buying public who seem to believe that buying an electrically powered/hybrid car is the 'right' thing to do.
Surely you all realise that 74% of generated electricity is lost from point of generation to the electrical supply outlet? If not, I urge you to read up on the ridiculous proposal that is electrically mains powered transportation. An electrically mains powered car is not, in any way, an environmentally attuned vehicle.
My message to all is to not waste your money on these marketing mongrel monstrosities and to wait a couple of years for hydrogen powered cars. Then, you'll get a far better powered car that will run greater distances, use up far less of the world's precious resources and emit only water droplets and light vapour.
Of course, if you want to be sucked in by the multinational's marketing hype and governmental nonsense, carry on and waste your hard earned cash...
...there is a reason why hydrogen is the most common element known to man
75% is not lost, you are talking total bSurely you all realise that 74% of generated electricity is lost from point of generation to the electrical supply outlet? If not, I urge you to read up on the ridiculous proposal that is electrically mains powered transportation. An electrically mains powered car is not, in any way, an environmentally attuned vehicle.
My message to all is to not waste your money on these marketing mongrel monstrosities and to wait a couple of years for hydrogen powered cars. Then, you'll get a far better powered car that will run greater distances, use up far less of the world's precious resources and emit only water droplets and light vapour.
Of course, if you want to be sucked in by the multinational's marketing hype and governmental nonsense, carry on and waste your hard earned cash...
...there is a reason why hydrogen is the most common element known to man
ks.To produce hydrogen you need to put way more electrical energy in, than you will get out. Hydrogen is effectively just another energy store/medium.
Did you know producing a gallon of fuel takes about 9kwh in electrical energy, about the same power an EV will need to move 30 miles.
Edited by 98elise on Sunday 24th November 23:46
Two questions
How will the govt recover the Fuel duty and VED for all the lower rated or zero rated cars?
Also let's say somehow you have enough PV panels at your house so are self sufficient as in in theory off the grid your energy cost to get to anywhere is free or a tiny share of the depreciation of the PV panels and any servicing they need.
EVs will force the point of either toll roads or GPS charging per mile else the govt have a massive Gap in revenue.
Secondly what are car companies going to do? Surely a hefty % of their revenue and profits come from spare parts and labour to replace those parts. If its all just tyres discs pads wiper blades and um bulbs oh and maybe new suspension every 15 years (how many people really do change their suspension on an old car? Only if it fails if imagine is the case for most people). So accident damage trading in used cars and peeping (valeting) in and selling brand new cars that is it.
Smart money is to cash in soon while the owners can maximise a dealerships future cash flows OR focus on maintaining classics though in reality that's not a big enough number to keep all those people employed.
What this space.
How will the govt recover the Fuel duty and VED for all the lower rated or zero rated cars?
Also let's say somehow you have enough PV panels at your house so are self sufficient as in in theory off the grid your energy cost to get to anywhere is free or a tiny share of the depreciation of the PV panels and any servicing they need.
EVs will force the point of either toll roads or GPS charging per mile else the govt have a massive Gap in revenue.
Secondly what are car companies going to do? Surely a hefty % of their revenue and profits come from spare parts and labour to replace those parts. If its all just tyres discs pads wiper blades and um bulbs oh and maybe new suspension every 15 years (how many people really do change their suspension on an old car? Only if it fails if imagine is the case for most people). So accident damage trading in used cars and peeping (valeting) in and selling brand new cars that is it.
Smart money is to cash in soon while the owners can maximise a dealerships future cash flows OR focus on maintaining classics though in reality that's not a big enough number to keep all those people employed.
What this space.
Welshbeef said:
Two questions
How will the govt recover the Fuel duty and VED for all the lower rated or zero rated cars?
Also let's say somehow you have enough PV panels at your house so are self sufficient as in in theory off the grid your energy cost to get to anywhere is free or a tiny share of the depreciation of the PV panels and any servicing they need.
EVs will force the point of either toll roads or GPS charging per mile else the govt have a massive Gap in revenue.
Secondly what are car companies going to do? Surely a hefty % of their revenue and profits come from spare parts and labour to replace those parts. If its all just tyres discs pads wiper blades and um bulbs oh and maybe new suspension every 15 years (how many people really do change their suspension on an old car? Only if it fails if imagine is the case for most people). So accident damage trading in used cars and peeping (valeting) in and selling brand new cars that is it.
Smart money is to cash in soon while the owners can maximise a dealerships future cash flows OR focus on maintaining classics though in reality that's not a big enough number to keep all those people employed.
What this space.
This is really the big issue with EVs. All these rants about range, drain on the Grid, batteries etc etc are really just I'll thought out rants. How will the govt recover the Fuel duty and VED for all the lower rated or zero rated cars?
Also let's say somehow you have enough PV panels at your house so are self sufficient as in in theory off the grid your energy cost to get to anywhere is free or a tiny share of the depreciation of the PV panels and any servicing they need.
EVs will force the point of either toll roads or GPS charging per mile else the govt have a massive Gap in revenue.
Secondly what are car companies going to do? Surely a hefty % of their revenue and profits come from spare parts and labour to replace those parts. If its all just tyres discs pads wiper blades and um bulbs oh and maybe new suspension every 15 years (how many people really do change their suspension on an old car? Only if it fails if imagine is the case for most people). So accident damage trading in used cars and peeping (valeting) in and selling brand new cars that is it.
Smart money is to cash in soon while the owners can maximise a dealerships future cash flows OR focus on maintaining classics though in reality that's not a big enough number to keep all those people employed.
What this space.
The core concern lies with when EVs are no longer niche. If there is strong adoption then the only State solution will be to force every car on the road to be priced by mile via a black box. This is a serious issue for all free thinking people. Luckily for the State there are few of those left since getting everyone hooked on debt and/or handouts.
A secondary issue does also lie with the franchises and the industry. Core profits are made from selling debt and servicing. The comedy elements included in the i3 servicing requirements highlights that there is a substantial drop in secondary spend predicted which if the market becomes established will be a significant hurdle.
TimJMS said:
If you lease it, DC charging though 500 odd quid to the cash buyer works out as a zero cost extra. I guess Beemer are looking 3 years down the line.
That's very interesting. Got my dealer checking this now. If it is free then I will get it added. Any other leasing bargains you are aware of?Amateurish said:
DonkeyApple said:
The comedy elements included in the i3 servicing requirements highlights that there is a substantial drop in secondary spend predicted which if the market becomes established will be a significant hurdle.
What are the comedy elements? Are these to bump up the cost?DonkeyApple said:
Someone quoted silly things like swapping the wheels round as forming part of the service requirement. Not sure if it was this thread or the other i3 one but there were several silly things that smacked of desperation to find maintenance work.
That was the Nissan Leaf, IIRC, although the i3 might be the same. v8250 said:
I sometimes despair with the fickleness of the current car buying public who seem to believe that buying an electrically powered/hybrid car is the 'right' thing to do.
Surely you all realise that 74% of generated electricity is lost from point of generation to the electrical supply outlet? If not, I urge you to read up on the ridiculous proposal that is electrically mains powered transportation. An electrically mains powered car is not, in any way, an environmentally attuned vehicle.
My message to all is to not waste your money on these marketing mongrel monstrosities and to wait a couple of years for hydrogen powered cars. Then, you'll get a far better powered car that will run greater distances, use up far less of the world's precious resources and emit only water droplets and light vapour.
Of course, if you want to be sucked in by the multinational's marketing hype and governmental nonsense, carry on and waste your hard earned cash...
...there is a reason why hydrogen is the most common element known to man
Surely you all realise that 74% of generated electricity is lost from point of generation to the electrical supply outlet? If not, I urge you to read up on the ridiculous proposal that is electrically mains powered transportation. An electrically mains powered car is not, in any way, an environmentally attuned vehicle.
My message to all is to not waste your money on these marketing mongrel monstrosities and to wait a couple of years for hydrogen powered cars. Then, you'll get a far better powered car that will run greater distances, use up far less of the world's precious resources and emit only water droplets and light vapour.
Of course, if you want to be sucked in by the multinational's marketing hype and governmental nonsense, carry on and waste your hard earned cash...
...there is a reason why hydrogen is the most common element known to man
You've have got to be a FUD Troll, or brain dead to believe any of that...
A Fool-cell car is basically an electric vehicle where stored hydrogen is the energy carrier. The hydrogen needs to be stored in a 5,000 PSI tank to get respectable range ( .. good luck with that). The daft thing is that making hydrogen needs high grade electricity for an electrolysis process that is less than 25% efficient, and that’s before all the energy needed to compress it. Surely, any human capable of doing simple sums can see the fatal flaw in this old idea, and that it is far far better to forget the electrolysis process and simply store the electricity in the first place …
Synthetic hydrogen as an energy carrier cannot be more efficient than the energy from which is it produced !! Renewable energy is far better distributed by electrons than any hydrogen method.
You state hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe etc etc etc, if so where is it then ??!? Hydrogen does not exist in nature in its pure form. Besides electrolysing water, pure hydrogen can also be produced from natural gas, coal or biomass, but in each case the separation process is very energy intensive!! It is way more sensible to use the energy more directly.
There's no rational engineering or ecological or energy argument that comes close to justifying fuel cell cars … except profit generation for existing petrochemical companies and enslavement to tax raising methods for governments, using the existing petrol distribution infrastructure.
TimJMS said:
Atommad said:
I thought there were no DC fast charging stations yet? That's what I was told by the BMW dealer, so the DC charge option is a gamble on the future. Is this correct?
If you lease it, DC charging though 500 odd quid to the cash buyer works out as a zero cost extra. I guess Beemer are looking 3 years down the line.Carparticus said:
There's no rational engineering or ecological or energy argument that comes close to justifying fuel cell cars … except profit generation for existing petrochemical companies and enslavement to tax raising methods for governments, using the existing petrol distribution infrastructure.
And of that infrastructure the only bits we can use without any modification is the shop selling out of date crispsCarparticus said:
v8250 said:
I sometimes despair with the fickleness of the current car buying public who seem to believe that buying an electrically powered/hybrid car is the 'right' thing to do.
Surely you all realise that 74% of generated electricity is lost from point of generation to the electrical supply outlet? If not, I urge you to read up on the ridiculous proposal that is electrically mains powered transportation. An electrically mains powered car is not, in any way, an environmentally attuned vehicle.
My message to all is to not waste your money on these marketing mongrel monstrosities and to wait a couple of years for hydrogen powered cars. Then, you'll get a far better powered car that will run greater distances, use up far less of the world's precious resources and emit only water droplets and light vapour.
Of course, if you want to be sucked in by the multinational's marketing hype and governmental nonsense, carry on and waste your hard earned cash...
...there is a reason why hydrogen is the most common element known to man
Surely you all realise that 74% of generated electricity is lost from point of generation to the electrical supply outlet? If not, I urge you to read up on the ridiculous proposal that is electrically mains powered transportation. An electrically mains powered car is not, in any way, an environmentally attuned vehicle.
My message to all is to not waste your money on these marketing mongrel monstrosities and to wait a couple of years for hydrogen powered cars. Then, you'll get a far better powered car that will run greater distances, use up far less of the world's precious resources and emit only water droplets and light vapour.
Of course, if you want to be sucked in by the multinational's marketing hype and governmental nonsense, carry on and waste your hard earned cash...
...there is a reason why hydrogen is the most common element known to man
You've have got to be a FUD Troll, or brain dead to believe any of that...
The only time it becomes sensible to start using energy at this rate is if we eventually (which seems very likely given the state of some experiments currently) crack nuclear fission.
And for sure for the short term we need to build more nuclear fusion plants to generate enough green energy in the meantime.
A Fool-cell car is basically an electric vehicle where stored hydrogen is the energy carrier. The hydrogen needs to be stored in a 5,000 PSI tank to get respectable range ( .. good luck with that). The daft thing is that making hydrogen needs high grade electricity for an electrolysis process that is less than 25% efficient, and that’s before all the energy needed to compress it. Surely, any human capable of doing simple sums can see the fatal flaw in this old idea, and that it is far far better to forget the electrolysis process and simply store the electricity in the first place …
Synthetic hydrogen as an energy carrier cannot be more efficient than the energy from which is it produced !! Renewable energy is far better distributed by electrons than any hydrogen method.
You state hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe etc etc etc, if so where is it then ??!? Hydrogen does not exist in nature in its pure form. Besides electrolysing water, pure hydrogen can also be produced from natural gas, coal or biomass, but in each case the separation process is very energy intensive!! It is way more sensible to use the energy more directly.
There's no rational engineering or ecological or energy argument that comes close to justifying fuel cell cars … except profit generation for existing petrochemical companies and enslavement to tax raising methods for governments, using the existing petrol distribution infrastructure.
DonkeyApple said:
Amateurish said:
DonkeyApple said:
The comedy elements included in the i3 servicing requirements highlights that there is a substantial drop in secondary spend predicted which if the market becomes established will be a significant hurdle.
What are the comedy elements? Are these to bump up the cost?
I've been involved in maintaining electric motors for decades. Maintnenance of them pretty much comes down to checking that the bearings are not noisy once every few months. This is on machinery that runs 12 -24 hours per day, 7 days a week.
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