New Lithium batteries with 3 times the storage

[otolith]

Mr2Mike said:

otolith said:

Because engines, gearboxes and emissions control systems are woven out of hemp?

Engines and gearboxes are made from steel and aluminium, you will still need these materials to produce EVs. The relatively small amounts of rare elements used in e.g. cats such as platinum, can be reclaimed. Back to you.

"Conveniently forgetting about the energy used and pollution produced in the manufacture of batteries..."

Producing iron and aluminium pollutes and uses energy. There are small amounts of other elements used. Material used in electric drivetrains can also be recycled. If you are asserting that making batteries and electric motors creates more pollution and uses more energy than making engines and gearboxes, can you show your working? How much more?

[Pvapour]

Mr2Mike said:

Pvapour said:

I'll try and put it more simply..

Autonomous cars will replace the tedious parts of driving,

There will be plenty of areas to still access the driving thrills you're so scared of loosing so dont worry

Maybe the problem is your lack of imagination as to how you'll get your driving thrills? Think of new possibilities that far exceed your favourite little B road blast on a sunday morning.

For instance, VR will be soo advanced and so real that you'll be able to partake in a historic Le Mans race of your choice in whatever car you desire, you wont be loosing stuff you did yesterday but gaining stuff you couldnt do yesterday, maybe even driving said race while your car is doing the boring comute

You are expressing your opinions on the future as though they were indisputable fact. Do you have a time machine or a crystal ball?

I don't want to live in a world where VR replaces actually going out and doing things, thanks all the same.

You dont even believe autonomous driving will happen then?

I think i'll stop discussing this topic with you at this point

Oh well, i guess my futures looking better than yours then VR will just be a very cool addition, i'll embrace that to, maybe, just maybe it'll enhance real racing (not stupid and dangerous to others road hooning)

[98elise]

Pvapour said:

Mr2Mike said:

For actual car enthusiasts (e.g. the people that started this place) driving is one of, if not the best part of owning a car. How are they meant to be celebrating at the thought of being delivered to work and back by a glorified washing machine?

I'll try and put it more simply..

Autonomous cars will replace the tedious parts of driving,

Agreed. I commute about 4 hours a day, mostly motorways. In my Elise it would be hell. I do that commute in a saloon car with power everything and an autobox. It has cruise control so I can stop using my foot if i want. Its logical that if I could let go of the steering then i would.

There is zero enjoyment to be had driving around the M25 for hours.

[otolith]

98elise said:

Pvapour said:

Mr2Mike said:

For actual car enthusiasts (e.g. the people that started this place) driving is one of, if not the best part of owning a car. How are they meant to be celebrating at the thought of being delivered to work and back by a glorified washing machine?

I'll try and put it more simply..

Autonomous cars will replace the tedious parts of driving,

Agreed. I commute about 4 hours a day, mostly motorways. In my Elise it would be hell. I do that commute in a saloon car with power everything and an autobox. It has cruise control so I can stop using my foot if i want. Its logical that if I could let go of the steering then i would.

There is zero enjoyment to be had driving around the M25 for hours.

In any case, this is about electric car drivetrains. Why has it drifted on to automation? They're both emerging technologies, with some synergies, but one does not imply the other.

[Dazed and Confused]

98elise said:

Pvapour said:

Mr2Mike said:

For actual car enthusiasts (e.g. the people that started this place) driving is one of, if not the best part of owning a car. How are they meant to be celebrating at the thought of being delivered to work and back by a glorified washing machine?

I'll try and put it more simply..

Autonomous cars will replace the tedious parts of driving,

Agreed. I commute about 4 hours a day, mostly motorways. In my Elise it would be hell. I do that commute in a saloon car with power everything and an autobox. It has cruise control so I can stop using my foot if i want. Its logical that if I could let go of the steering then i would.

There is zero enjoyment to be had driving around the M25 for hours.

Unlike the vast majority of current PHers, I actually enjoy driving. It's the part of my job that I enjoy the most. Radical, I know. There, I've said it.

[Mr2Mike]

otolith said:

"Conveniently forgetting about the energy used and pollution produced in the manufacture of batteries..."

Producing iron and aluminium pollutes and uses energy. There are small amounts of other elements used. Material used in electric drivetrains can also be recycled. If you are asserting that making batteries and electric motors creates more pollution and uses more energy than making engines and gearboxes, can you show your working? How much more?

Why do you keep banging on about iron and aluminium? As I've already said it's irrelevant since EVs also use these materials, and they are also much easier to extract

Lithium ion batteries use Lithium, nickel and cobalt, all of which require difficult and filthy processes.

[Dazed and Confused]

Pvapour said:

Mr2Mike said:

Pvapour said:

I'll try and put it more simply..

Autonomous cars will replace the tedious parts of driving,

There will be plenty of areas to still access the driving thrills you're so scared of loosing so dont worry

Maybe the problem is your lack of imagination as to how you'll get your driving thrills? Think of new possibilities that far exceed your favourite little B road blast on a sunday morning.

For instance, VR will be soo advanced and so real that you'll be able to partake in a historic Le Mans race of your choice in whatever car you desire, you wont be loosing stuff you did yesterday but gaining stuff you couldnt do yesterday, maybe even driving said race while your car is doing the boring comute

You are expressing your opinions on the future as though they were indisputable fact. Do you have a time machine or a crystal ball?

I don't want to live in a world where VR replaces actually going out and doing things, thanks all the same.

You dont even believe autonomous driving will happen then?

I think i'll stop discussing this topic with you at this point

Oh well, i guess my futures looking better than yours then VR will just be a very cool addition, i'll embrace that to, maybe, just maybe it'll enhance real racing (not stupid and dangerous to others road hooning)

Happy to carry on the argument. I'm sure autonomous cars will come along at some point but when. Next year? Next 50 years?

Ditto the mega batteries for all these underwhelming EVs we have at present. When?

[Heres Johnny]

Mr2Mike said:

Why do you keep banging on about iron and aluminium? As I've already said it's irrelevant since EVs also use these materials, and they are also much easier to extract

Lithium ion batteries use Lithium, nickel and cobalt, all of which require difficult and filthy processes.

If you really want to wind up a Tesla owner who thinks the sun shines out of Elons exhaust pipe

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/09/ele...

It seems some things are ok as long as its not outside our schools.

I'm sure diesel and to a lesser extent petrol are pretty toxic and probably to more kids, but everything you do has a price somewhere.

[otolith]

Mr2Mike said:

otolith said:

"Conveniently forgetting about the energy used and pollution produced in the manufacture of batteries..."

Producing iron and aluminium pollutes and uses energy. There are small amounts of other elements used. Material used in electric drivetrains can also be recycled. If you are asserting that making batteries and electric motors creates more pollution and uses more energy than making engines and gearboxes, can you show your working? How much more?

Why do you keep banging on about iron and aluminium? As I've already said it's irrelevant since EVs also use these materials, and they are also much easier to extract

Lithium ion batteries use Lithium, nickel and cobalt, all of which require difficult and filthy processes.

EVs also have a body made out of steel and aluminium. They don't, however, have several hundred kilograms of steel and aluminium making up an engine and gearbox. So you are going to have to subtract that from your audit. Instead, they have an electric drivetrain, for which you will add some things to your audit.

Lithium extraction does have some environmental costs, but it's not massively unpleasant compared to mining and smelting iron ore or bauxite, and it's actually used in very small quantities. It's not a major contributor to the environmental impact of a battery engined vehicle.

Cobalt and nickel are indeed used, possibly in higher quantities than in your ICE vehicle. Cobalt is used, amongst other places, in tyres, in alloys for turbocharger components, in magnets for starter motors. Nickel is used in various alloys including stainless steels and those used for spark plugs, gears, valves, turbocharger components, etc.

Analysis of relative environmental impacts here;

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/es903729a

Manufacturing any vehicle involves some environmental impacts, especially if it is made out of metals. I don't particularly see that battery electric vehicles are markedly worse than ICE vehicles.

[RayTay]

Mr2Mike said:

Engines and gearboxes are made from steel and aluminium, you will still need these materials to produce EVs. The relatively small amounts of rare elements used in e.g. cats such as platinum, can be reclaimed. Back to you.

To make a pure EV takes less energy. Hence less pollution.

[98elise]

Mr2Mike said:

otolith said:

"Conveniently forgetting about the energy used and pollution produced in the manufacture of batteries..."

Producing iron and aluminium pollutes and uses energy. There are small amounts of other elements used. Material used in electric drivetrains can also be recycled. If you are asserting that making batteries and electric motors creates more pollution and uses more energy than making engines and gearboxes, can you show your working? How much more?

Why do you keep banging on about iron and aluminium? As I've already said it's irrelevant since EVs also use these materials, and they are also much easier to extract

Lithium ion batteries use Lithium, nickel and cobalt, all of which require difficult and filthy processes.

How clean is oil Extraction?

I though Lithium was extracted from brine? I'll have to check though!

[98elise]

otolith said:

98elise said:

Pvapour said:

Mr2Mike said:

For actual car enthusiasts (e.g. the people that started this place) driving is one of, if not the best part of owning a car. How are they meant to be celebrating at the thought of being delivered to work and back by a glorified washing machine?

I'll try and put it more simply..

Autonomous cars will replace the tedious parts of driving,

Agreed. I commute about 4 hours a day, mostly motorways. In my Elise it would be hell. I do that commute in a saloon car with power everything and an autobox. It has cruise control so I can stop using my foot if i want. Its logical that if I could let go of the steering then i would.

There is zero enjoyment to be had driving around the M25 for hours.

In any case, this is about electric car drivetrains. Why has it drifted on to automation? They're both emerging technologies, with some synergies, but one does not imply the other.

I would guess that its because EV's mean you lose someone of the visceral aspects of driving (noise, revs, gear changes etc), and Autonomy takes away the interaction. Both are steps along the same path to a featureless transport pod.

[98elise]

RayTay said:

Mr2Mike said:

Engines and gearboxes are made from steel and aluminium, you will still need these materials to produce EVs. The relatively small amounts of rare elements used in e.g. cats such as platinum, can be reclaimed. Back to you.

To make a pure EV takes less energy. Hence less pollution.

I understood it was more energy in production, but less in operation. Overall its less over the entire lifecycle.

[otolith]

98elise said:

I would guess that its because EV's mean you lose someone of the visceral aspects of driving (noise, revs, gear changes etc), and Autonomy takes away the interaction. Both are steps along the same path to a featureless transport pod.

Everything is going double clutch automatic and is fitted with engines which make noises not worth hearing. That thing Hammond crashed looks pretty visceral.

[Mr2Mike]

98elise said:

How clean is oil Extraction?

I though Lithium was extracted from brine? I'll have to check though!

Lithium mostly comes from from salt flat deposits, but there are conventional strip mines as well.

Some interesting stuff in this document:

http://www.pureleapfrog.org/filelibrary/Download%2...

[RayTay]

98elise said:

I understood it was more energy in production, but less in operation. Overall its less over the entire lifecycle.

less metal in an EV. No large engines and transmission.

[Heres Johnny]

RayTay said:

98elise said:

I understood it was more energy in production, but less in operation. Overall its less over the entire lifecycle.

less metal in an EV. No large engines and transmission.

EVs are some of the heaviest cars on the road, a Model S is about 400kg more than a bmw 7 series.

[Evanivitch]

98elise said:

I would guess that its because EV's mean you lose someone of the visceral aspects of driving (noise, revs, gear changes etc), and Autonomy takes away the interaction. Both are steps along the same path to a featureless transport pod.

I was in a Golf R the other day, favourite if the PistonHeads.

There was artificial engine noise coming through the speakers and DSG box doing all the work.

Same can be said of my colleagues with new BMW sports models (435d and 140i)

So seems the ICE is already killing the noise and gear changes itself!

[otolith]

Heres Johnny said:

RayTay said:

98elise said:

I understood it was more energy in production, but less in operation. Overall its less over the entire lifecycle.

less metal in an EV. No large engines and transmission.

EVs are some of the heaviest cars on the road, a Model S is about 400kg more than a bmw 7 series.

Batteries are heavy, but they aren't mostly solid metal - maybe 30% aluminium, copper and steel by weight. The rest of it is graphite, metal salts, electrolyte, plastics.

https://www.researchgate.net/deref/http%3A%2F%2Fww...

(breakdown will vary by battery chemistry, with some electrode materials denser than others)

[Heres Johnny]

otolith said:

Heres Johnny said:

RayTay said:

98elise said:

I understood it was more energy in production, but less in operation. Overall its less over the entire lifecycle.

less metal in an EV. No large engines and transmission.

EVs are some of the heaviest cars on the road, a Model S is about 400kg more than a bmw 7 series.

Batteries are heavy, but they aren't mostly solid metal - maybe 30% aluminium, copper and steel by weight. The rest of it is graphite, metal salts, electrolyte, plastics.

https://www.researchgate.net/deref/http%3A%2F%2Fww...

(breakdown will vary by battery chemistry, with some electrode materials denser than others)

The argument was more energy to produce which was countered by less metal, the reality is there is still a lot more "stuff" to make in an EV. Batteries are heavy, but then so is the case they're all held in which protects them from being pierced, and if you have a heavy car you need more metal in the suspension etc. It doesn't really make a fat lot of difference as Tesla didn't set out to build a light car, they're not using any fancy composite materials like BMW do, it uses aluminium in the panels but so do a lot of cars. The fundamentals of the cars are very different and every report you read includes some bits and not others. Take refining petrol - sure it takes a lot of energy, but then as part of that process other chemicals are produced which go into other things and they'd still need to be produced, and some of the heat from the refining process is captured and recycled. People grab one stat as if its the only stat.