Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
LasseV said:
98elise said:
ZesPak said:
As someone who bought the longest range EV possible coming off a diesel, having lived with it for 4 years, I really struggle to see the obsession with range.
I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
I would agree. Personally I don't want to drive more than 2-3 hours without a decent break. As long as I can get a decent refil in say 35-40 minutes then range isn't an issue.I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
Having an option of 1500km means the edge case arguments are gone
Yup.
There is a reason BEV is the clear winner
LPG didn't get more than a niche market share, so i can't see why a much harder to handle, hugely inefficient alternative would work in the mass market. earth mover in a remote mine? maybe. peter or pierre ploughing up and down the main routes in europe? no, for all the reasons given in this thread.
Think it may be best to let the hydrogen champion get on with it,,,,
There is more charge sattions out there for BEV than there is hydrogen refuel points
There is more information out there about BEV in real world situations being over 95% of what we need.
Therre is more information out there about the lack of true green hydrogen and where we need to be to take advantage of it, and that is way way in the future with a load of construction and building to achieve.
There is more information coming out about the environmental issues with hydrogen produced by steam reformation and the like in terms of what to do with the carbon byproducts...
There is more information coming out about the environmental issues with hydrogen leaks having massive impacts on the earths atmosphere.
There is more information about the process efficiency from getting hydrogen from what ever source and the energy levels in hydrogen being indicative that it isnt the best way to use the energy. were going into the era where every watt is precious, and we cant afford to be blasie about that. Think once you have electricity you have it. To then use that electricity to generate hydrogen pressurise store and then convert back to electricity for a low grade fuel.... You have wasted valuable resource.
I can generate electricity transmit it hundreds of miles and then charge a battery with less wastage of energy through losses than what I can producing hydrogen.
Hydrogen isnt the future, it may have been at one time when they had not yet worked out the figures. but now... industry has moved on and so has the population. Battery is where were going. Its eaiser to produce electricity and transmit that to the point of recharging, than it is to make hydrogen and tanker that to point of use. by orders of magnitiude that totally blow hydrogen out the water.
There is more charge sattions out there for BEV than there is hydrogen refuel points
There is more information out there about BEV in real world situations being over 95% of what we need.
Therre is more information out there about the lack of true green hydrogen and where we need to be to take advantage of it, and that is way way in the future with a load of construction and building to achieve.
There is more information coming out about the environmental issues with hydrogen produced by steam reformation and the like in terms of what to do with the carbon byproducts...
There is more information coming out about the environmental issues with hydrogen leaks having massive impacts on the earths atmosphere.
There is more information about the process efficiency from getting hydrogen from what ever source and the energy levels in hydrogen being indicative that it isnt the best way to use the energy. were going into the era where every watt is precious, and we cant afford to be blasie about that. Think once you have electricity you have it. To then use that electricity to generate hydrogen pressurise store and then convert back to electricity for a low grade fuel.... You have wasted valuable resource.
I can generate electricity transmit it hundreds of miles and then charge a battery with less wastage of energy through losses than what I can producing hydrogen.
Hydrogen isnt the future, it may have been at one time when they had not yet worked out the figures. but now... industry has moved on and so has the population. Battery is where were going. Its eaiser to produce electricity and transmit that to the point of recharging, than it is to make hydrogen and tanker that to point of use. by orders of magnitiude that totally blow hydrogen out the water.
LasseV said:
It is only your opinion.
Not opinion, real life experience, and plenty of others on here have the same experience.You can go and buy a used EV now for sub £30k and be in any part Europe tomorrow (or today, depending on much you love driving).
I've not seen anyone do any road trips in H2 powered cars.
If you love driving, which I presume most people here do, I find it hard why anyone still thinks H2 powered cars have a future when EVs are here already.
LasseV said:
rscott said:
LasseV said:
gangzoom said:
GT9 said:
LasseV said:
Production car (Toyota Mirai) went over 1300km with 19" wheels. Toyota's new FCEV Crown does have 800km official range. So FCEV's does have upper hand in range.
Funny that you elected not to mention that Toyota recently announced a 1500 km solid-state battery with a 10 minute charging time due for production 2027....The upper hand will be lost long before anyone will be making lots of green hydrogen.
We've just done a summer holiday road trip (Leicester->Colmar->Como->Stelvio->Lucerne->Leicester). with 6 people + luggage, in a 6.5 year old EV with 68k miles on the clock with ZERO range anxiety or issues.
BEV technology has been good enough for personal transportation for coming up to a decade now, things are simply getting easier and easier with the number of DC rapid chargers now appearing everywhere in Europe.
Even James May has pretty much given up on his Mirai hasn't he?
I wonder how long it would take to do a family European road trip in a Mirai - or even if its possible?
karoo around Teslas falsely claimed ranges proves that. A lot of consumers wants to have a long range. There is a real stshow coming about this matter in mainstream media.No, May just changed it to new gen Mirai and absolutely loves it. He lives in wrong country tho.
Anyway, this is a must watch video for car enthusiastics. Supercharged V8 (LS) running with hydrogen, zero emission and 500hp with manual box. EPA valitated and they are aiming to develope complete kit for commercial purpose. There are a lot of familiar names mentioned in this video, including BOSCH and GM.
Not gonna lie, this is the way in the long run for car builders, hot rodders, restomods etc. Toyota already build h2 AE86 but it is also very important that US car builders will do their magic with h2.
https://youtu.be/RAEhhYqMEBE
One very important thing about what they said, is that there is a lot of false information in youtube about hydrogen in car use. And i agree.
Edited by LasseV on Sunday 30th July 09:27
That's according to a company who build emissions test equipment -
https://www.horiba.com/int/automotive/applications... - not a random YouTuber.
That HICE will be maybe 20% efficient, if they're lucky, so this isn't a large scale viable solution as there's no way to produce enough green hydrogen.
Edited by LasseV on Sunday 30th July 10:32
That v8 is entirely designed for performance, not efficiency - might get 30-35% efficiency at peak, but average across a normal usage cycle is going to be similar to a petrol ICE at around 20%
Nice to see you actually reply to a comment for once - I see you ignored it when it was pointed out that the EU legislation mandating hydrogen fuelling facilities in 2030 also requires the addition of EV charging as well, but by 2025.
Why anyone would even contemplate a hydrogen engine when a Tesla does everything you need and more is beyond me. No dealership and no servicing which is a blessing and they have been 100% reliable now going towards 3 years of ownership. PEANUTS TO RUN ! .
Why build and have all the costs of a conventional engine in a vehicle when an EV is a dream for most to live with ?
Why build and have all the costs of a conventional engine in a vehicle when an EV is a dream for most to live with ?
98elise said:
ZesPak said:
As someone who bought the longest range EV possible coming off a diesel, having lived with it for 4 years, I really struggle to see the obsession with range.
I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
I would agree. Personally I don't want to drive more than 2-3 hours without a decent break. As long as I can get a decent refil in say 35-40 minutes then range isn't an issue.I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
Having an option of 1500km means the edge case arguments are gone
I won’t!
What The Deuces said:
98elise said:
ZesPak said:
As someone who bought the longest range EV possible coming off a diesel, having lived with it for 4 years, I really struggle to see the obsession with range.
I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
I would agree. Personally I don't want to drive more than 2-3 hours without a decent break. As long as I can get a decent refil in say 35-40 minutes then range isn't an issue.I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
Having an option of 1500km means the edge case arguments are gone
I won’t!
Nobody is forcing you to buy an EV today are they.
Personally I won't drive for more than about 3 hours without a break and certainly didn't with family aboard.
What The Deuces said:
98elise said:
ZesPak said:
As someone who bought the longest range EV possible coming off a diesel, having lived with it for 4 years, I really struggle to see the obsession with range.
I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
I would agree. Personally I don't want to drive more than 2-3 hours without a decent break. As long as I can get a decent refil in say 35-40 minutes then range isn't an issue.I like driving. I don't mind driving long stints across Europe, I do it at least 3 times a year. Yet all the time the main argument you hear against EV's is range.
I agree that you want more than 300km real range, but to me, anything above that is just bonus.
Aiming for things like 1500km just seems silly to me.
Having an option of 1500km means the edge case arguments are gone
I won’t!
I was pointing out that people who need to drive for hours on end will be happy with 1500km batteries. For me (and many others) it's not an issue with current ranges.
I guess that nobody is going to change their minds on this topic, but I would make one observation. Many people are arguing for BEVs over fuel cells on the grounds of "well to wheel" efficiency. The argument is that it is much more efficient to generate electricity and dump it straight into a battery, than to take it through the complex and tortuous process of hydrogen production. I think there are some standard pictures that have been posted several times.
This is totally correct, and unarguable. But I suspect that the final mix of solutions won't be based on pure efficiency, it will be based on politics. If BEVs get to a point where they are widely accepted in terms of price and convenience, then that will be it; fuel cells will be dead. If not - if, for example, the grid cannot be scaled out, or charging times cannot be adequately reduced, or costs remain high - then I suspect that either the H2 network will be built out in very short order, or the 2030/2035 zero emission commitments will get junked, because no government wants to be seen as the one that made mass personal transportation unviable in order to meet a green target.
There are other non-scientific factors at play here. I suspect that car manufacturers are looking at BEVs and seeing their servicing revenues being decimated in the long term. I also suspect that fuel cell technology is seen as a possible way for Europe and Japan to maintain automotive powertrain leadership without ceding the stage to China. And I suspect that is why most European and Japanese manufacturers seem to be keeping a toe hold in the fuel cell camp.
I think that we are not in steady state yet, and this whole thing will be about much more than raw efficiency.
This is totally correct, and unarguable. But I suspect that the final mix of solutions won't be based on pure efficiency, it will be based on politics. If BEVs get to a point where they are widely accepted in terms of price and convenience, then that will be it; fuel cells will be dead. If not - if, for example, the grid cannot be scaled out, or charging times cannot be adequately reduced, or costs remain high - then I suspect that either the H2 network will be built out in very short order, or the 2030/2035 zero emission commitments will get junked, because no government wants to be seen as the one that made mass personal transportation unviable in order to meet a green target.
There are other non-scientific factors at play here. I suspect that car manufacturers are looking at BEVs and seeing their servicing revenues being decimated in the long term. I also suspect that fuel cell technology is seen as a possible way for Europe and Japan to maintain automotive powertrain leadership without ceding the stage to China. And I suspect that is why most European and Japanese manufacturers seem to be keeping a toe hold in the fuel cell camp.
I think that we are not in steady state yet, and this whole thing will be about much more than raw efficiency.
LasseV said:
You pulled that efficiency number from your ass didn't you? Everyone knows that HICE efficiency is already comparable to diesel engine - in the future it could be even better.
More reindeer poo.The only time a spark ignition engine gets to run at its peak efficiency is when you are at the optimum design point.
It is not possible to continuously operate at that point when using an engine through a conventional transmission.
There is no regen possible either, unless it's a hybrid.
Average drive-cycle efficiencies measure at the wheels are way lower than the peak lab efficiency.
There is no mainstream future for engines with conventional transmissions in passenger cars, they are far too inefficient to use in combination with renewable energy sources.
Used with gaseous hydrogen means nowhere to sit in the car for more than 2 people, but you already know that.
And seeing as how much you like to use Toyota as a benchmark, here is the efficiency map for their 40% spark ignition engine.
AmitG said:
I guess that nobody is going to change their minds on this topic,
Personal opinion doesn’t matter at this stage, you can buy used EVs that are coming up to been ‘affordable’ for the masses that will do plenty of long trips fine with no issues. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are literally fantasy for nearly everyone, I would love to see just one example of how a hydrogen fuel cell car could actually work as a replacement for combustion cars in 2023.gangzoom said:
AmitG said:
I guess that nobody is going to change their minds on this topic,
Personal opinion doesn’t matter at this stage, you can buy used EVs that are coming up to been ‘affordable’ for the masses that will do plenty of long trips fine with no issues. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are literally fantasy for nearly everyone, I would love to see just one example of how a hydrogen fuel cell car could actually work as a replacement for combustion cars in 2023.ks.Just in case anyone else is like me and doesn't have a science background, there is a good podcast on BBC Sounds by the Naked Scientists which explains simply how hydrogen works as a fuel source and the limitations/possibilities.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0fxy5ps?partner...
It is about half way in if you don't want to listen to the other stuff.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0fxy5ps?partner...
It is about half way in if you don't want to listen to the other stuff.
Secret lemonade drinker said:
EV is just the planet killing version of Betamax
Hydrogen is the future, BEV is nothing more than the stepping stone
so that's basically parroting the thread title. can you back up your opinion with anything? genuine question, as everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it's interesting how you made it.Hydrogen is the future, BEV is nothing more than the stepping stone
dvs_dave said:
Go troll somewhere else, ya nob ‘ed
I’ve just ended three years of Bev ownership bsRange, cost, all utter lies.
Just because you’ve bought into it and I disagree doesn’t mean you need to hide behind the troll defence
Bev is great for short local use but anything else is a nightmare and the charger infrastructure just is not reliable enough
Secret lemonade drinker said:
dvs_dave said:
Go troll somewhere else, ya nob ‘ed
I’ve just ended three years of Bev ownership bsRange, cost, all utter lies.
Just because you’ve bought into it and I disagree doesn’t mean you need to hide behind the troll defence
Bev is great for short local use but anything else is a nightmare and the charger infrastructure just is not reliable enough
While driving my freshly-charged-at-home EV, I encountered a Toyota Mirai for the first time in my life today. It was at least 50 miles from the nearest filling station and plastered all over with huge 'H2' and 'HYDROGEN' stickers. It was clearly trying way too hard and it made me chuckle.
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