What they don't tell you about electric cars
Discussion
P.Griffin said:
The trouble is, I do try and research and come up with things like this https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and... but people like you try to tell me otherwise and are convinced by it. Hence, there is no room for debate with extremists.
Have you read the study HM Gov commissioned from Ricardo specifically for the UK's situation? GT9 said:
I would normally back up a statement like that with multiple sources of evidence, but I think we are past that now, it’s been nearly 10 years that I’ve been posting as such. It must surely be getting boring as hell for the longer term posters on these threads.
This is the confusing thing - there has been a decade of debate since the first 'horror' articles about how dirty car batteries are, about how Hydrogen is the real long term solution blah blah.. in that time it's been debated to death and all the actual evidence, so far as private transport is concerned, is that BEV is far cleaner than ICE and also easily cleaner, simpler and more efficient than anything else that has been considered.Yet from the outside, people with no interest at looking into the known facts, are willing to form an opinion. Even in this case the opinion is that it's too soon to say, wrong to put all eggs in one basket - that's still an opinion, still one that ignores the available evidence.
otolith said:
It's worth pointing out that the UK has not mandated any particular technology for 2035 onward new cars - the mandate is not for battery cars, they can be powered by hydrogen, clockwork, or unicorn spunk, they just can't be powered by ICEs.
That's very true. The choice of car is effectively set by the industry, which in turn is set by reality and physics.Although a spunk powered car might not technically qualify for zero emissions...
eldar said:
The efficiency aspect is interesting. My EV has consumed around 2,300 MW of electricity and covered 8,800 miles, so 261watts per mile.
Its predecessor was a petrol car of similar size and performance, and used around 600 watts per mile.
Costs are around 2p electric and 14p petrol per mile.
The EV is a better drive, the instant and linear throttle response is a joy.
Downsides are the app is s
te, the boot is a bit cramped and it could do with another 50 miles range.
I think you meant 2300 kWh for 8,800 miles and 261 Wh per mile? Its predecessor was a petrol car of similar size and performance, and used around 600 watts per mile.
Costs are around 2p electric and 14p petrol per mile.
The EV is a better drive, the instant and linear throttle response is a joy.
Downsides are the app is s
te, the boot is a bit cramped and it could do with another 50 miles range. 
Wh is energy, W is power.
For the petrol car, 600 Wh per mile is about 67 mpg...
otolith said:
It's worth pointing out that the UK has not mandated any particular technology for 2035 onward new cars - the mandate is not for battery cars, they can be powered by hydrogen, clockwork, or unicorn spunk, they just can't be powered by ICEs.
And hydrogen cars are available now. Toyota are virtually giving them away. otolith said:
It's worth pointing out that the UK has not mandated any particular technology for 2035 onward new cars - the mandate is not for battery cars, they can be powered by hydrogen, clockwork, or unicorn spunk, they just can't be powered by ICEs.
I think they can but they have to be zero emissions... probably more difficult than catching that unicorn.GT9 said:
What was the petrol car averaging 67 mpg BTW.
For petrol, 1000 Wh/mile = 40 mpg.
Petrol is about 46MJ per kg calorific valueFor petrol, 1000 Wh/mile = 40 mpg.
About 35.4 KJ per litre
Close to 10kWh per litre
Hybrids on the Atkinson cycle can do better than 45% efficiency, so 67mpg would be 14.8 miles per litre, or about 14.8 miles per (10kWh x 45%efficiency) = about 3.3 miles per kWh at the crankshaft.
A similar number to what EVs get.
My diesel can do 50mpg 'averaged' on a long run, 45 mpg averaged over mixed use, probably better than 67mpg steady speed at 60mph.
Any 'urban' trashes the 'average'.
OutInTheShed said:
Petrol is about 46MJ per kg calorific value
About 35.4 KJ per litre
Close to 10kWh per litre
Hybrids on the Atkinson cycle can do better than 45% efficiency, so 67mpg would be 14.8 miles per litre, or about 14.8 miles per (10kWh x 45%efficiency) = about 3.3 miles per kWh at the crankshaft.
A similar number to what EVs get.
Umm.About 35.4 KJ per litre
Close to 10kWh per litre
Hybrids on the Atkinson cycle can do better than 45% efficiency, so 67mpg would be 14.8 miles per litre, or about 14.8 miles per (10kWh x 45%efficiency) = about 3.3 miles per kWh at the crankshaft.
A similar number to what EVs get.
EVs achieve about 3.3 miles per kWh tank-to-wheel.
Or 132 mpg equivalent.
67 mpg is half that, i.e. not the same.
The 45% is part of the inefficiency tank to wheel...
GT9 said:
OutInTheShed said:
Petrol is about 46MJ per kg calorific value
About 35.4 KJ per litre
Close to 10kWh per litre
Hybrids on the Atkinson cycle can do better than 45% efficiency, so 67mpg would be 14.8 miles per litre, or about 14.8 miles per (10kWh x 45%efficiency) = about 3.3 miles per kWh at the crankshaft.
A similar number to what EVs get.
Umm.About 35.4 KJ per litre
Close to 10kWh per litre
Hybrids on the Atkinson cycle can do better than 45% efficiency, so 67mpg would be 14.8 miles per litre, or about 14.8 miles per (10kWh x 45%efficiency) = about 3.3 miles per kWh at the crankshaft.
A similar number to what EVs get.
EVs achieve about 3.3 miles per kWh tank-to-wheel.
Or 132 mpg equivalent.
67 mpg is half that, i.e. not the same.
The 45% is part of the inefficiency tank to wheel...
Tycho said:
98elise said:
And hydrogen cars are available now. Toyota are virtually giving them away.
Doesn't seem they can even do that very well as I've only ever seen a couple of taxis and an unmarked police car Mirais.OutInTheShed said:
Petrol is about 46MJ per kg calorific value
About 35.4 KJ per litre
Close to 10kWh per litre
Hybrids on the Atkinson cycle can do better than 45% efficiency, so 67mpg would be 14.8 miles per litre, or about 14.8 miles per (10kWh x 45%efficiency) = about 3.3 miles per kWh at the crankshaft.
A similar number to what EVs get.
My diesel can do 50mpg 'averaged' on a long run, 45 mpg averaged over mixed use, probably better than 67mpg steady speed at 60mph.
Any 'urban' trashes the 'average'.
As an aside, urban EV use uses little 'fuel' , improves the average.About 35.4 KJ per litre
Close to 10kWh per litre
Hybrids on the Atkinson cycle can do better than 45% efficiency, so 67mpg would be 14.8 miles per litre, or about 14.8 miles per (10kWh x 45%efficiency) = about 3.3 miles per kWh at the crankshaft.
A similar number to what EVs get.
My diesel can do 50mpg 'averaged' on a long run, 45 mpg averaged over mixed use, probably better than 67mpg steady speed at 60mph.
Any 'urban' trashes the 'average'.
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