New Lithium batteries with 3 times the storage

[MrJingles705]

Reading the original paper, and then reading some of the followup from experts in the field (and thats not meant to disparage John Goodenough who - besiodes having one of the best names out there - is pretty much the go-to guy for Li-on Batteries) but there are some significant issues to overcome on capability.

Voltage can only be produced when there is potential across the anode/canode.... the way this battery works means that the same material is deposied on both nodes and and once material starts getting too thick (more than a micron) then that potential goes away. Basically, each individual cell is capacity-limited and I'm not sure how they will overcome that physical limit.

I suppose they could go down to mico-cell, but then you are trading away energy density and weight to get voltage.... will still be a great cell due to rapid charing and safety (no flamable electrolyte) but no more range advantage. So incremental improvement.

[RayTay]

TooMany2cvs said:

It's not insurmountable. Of course it isn't. But it WOULD need a MASSIVE overhaul to the entire national grid, including a LOT more power stations...

It would not need a massive overhaul to the grid if electricity is generated locally, via solar roofs, wind, and especially tidal lagoons, etc. It does have to be done now though.

[mybrainhurts]

RayTay said:

Full EVs are then here and bye, bye polluting petro fuels.

How very dull. Are you big on knitting?

[RayTay]

This is another breakthrough, using plastic as the electrolyte. But holds only twice the energy that we have today. There may be scope for improvement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9UxOJacQmg

Edited by RayTay on Monday 3rd July 09:58

[TooMany2cvs]

RayTay said:

TooMany2cvs said:

It's not insurmountable. Of course it isn't. But it WOULD need a MASSIVE overhaul to the entire national grid, including a LOT more power stations...

It would not need a massive overhaul to the grid if electricity is generated locally, via solar roofs, wind, and especially tidal lagoons, etc. It does have to be done now though.

Generated locally.
Solar roofs and tidal lagoons.
Heathrow.

You really haven't thought this through, have you?

[RayTay]

mybrainhurts said:

How very dull. Are you big on knitting?

You have never drove a Tesla then to come out with such a statement. We have to get away from polluting, inefficient, energy sapping cars, it is as simple as that, whether you think so or not.

[RayTay]

TooMany2cvs said:

Generated locally.
Solar roofs and tidal lagoons.
Heathrow.

You really haven't thought this through, have you?

Find out how electricity can be generated.

[TooMany2cvs]

RayTay said:

TooMany2cvs said:

Generated locally.
Solar roofs and tidal lagoons.
Heathrow.

You really haven't thought this through, have you?

Find out how electricity can be generated.

I know how electricity can be generated, thanks. I also know what sort of scale of generation (to orders of magnitude, anyway) is needed for what sort of output, and what sort of demand would be needed for a bunch of electric planes.

Have you ever been to Heathrow? Teddington Lock isn't that far away, sure, but just think about how many planes are going to be plugged in, recharging. Then think about just HOW tidal the Thames isn't at that point...

And that's before we consider how much of the time the sun is shining on the airport relative to how much of the time the airport's in use.

[RayTay]

LuS1fer said:

Until you can charge a car in the same time it takes to fill a tank, it's always going to be second best.

You have not been reading what I posted. The IC engine is on the downward slide for sure.

[98elise]

TooMany2cvs said:

RayTay said:

TooMany2cvs said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around how big an electricity supply Heathrow would need...

You making out it is an insurmountable problem. Drive a Tesla as I have. Wonderful quiet experience.

It's not insurmountable. Of course it isn't. But it WOULD need a MASSIVE overhaul to the entire national grid, including a LOT more power stations...

I'm sure your Tesla is lovely, if you like that sort of thing. For that money, it needs to be. But that doesn't alter the basic facts of the power infrastructure in this country.

Do you have any figures to back that up?

The average driver needs 7kWh of energy per day. That's about the same as a Hob for an hour.

The majority of charging will be done over night, so the current over time drops significantly. Now you are in the realms of an outside light, or the total draw from my kitchen lights.

We have plenty of spare energy capacity to cope with that, and the grid already deals with most hobs and cookers being switched on at peak times.

We may need to throttle when your house is at peak demand, but that's very very simple.

[RayTay]

MrJingles705 said:

Reading the original paper, and then reading some of the followup from experts in the field (and thats not meant to disparage John Goodenough who - besiodes having one of the best names out there - is pretty much the go-to guy for Li-on Batteries) but there are some significant issues to overcome on capability.

Voltage can only be produced when there is potential across the anode/canode.... the way this battery works means that the same material is deposied on both nodes and and once material starts getting too thick (more than a micron) then that potential goes away. Basically, each individual cell is capacity-limited and I'm not sure how they will overcome that physical limit.

Look at the video I posted. That uses plastic as the electrolyte. Goodenough uses glass. That is what after 1,000s of charges there is no degradation.

[TooMany2cvs]

98elise said:

TooMany2cvs said:

RayTay said:

TooMany2cvs said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around how big an electricity supply Heathrow would need...

You making out it is an insurmountable problem. Drive a Tesla as I have. Wonderful quiet experience.

It's not insurmountable. Of course it isn't. But it WOULD need a MASSIVE overhaul to the entire national grid, including a LOT more power stations...

I'm sure your Tesla is lovely, if you like that sort of thing. For that money, it needs to be. But that doesn't alter the basic facts of the power infrastructure in this country.

Do you have any figures to back that up?

The average driver needs 7kWh of energy per day. That's about the same as a Hob for an hour.

The majority of charging will be done over night, so the current over time drops significantly. Now you are in the realms of an outside light, or the total draw from my kitchen lights.

We have plenty of spare energy capacity to cope with that, and the grid already deals with most hobs and cookers being switched on at peak times.

We may need to throttle when your house is at peak demand, but that's very very simple.

One word you seem to have forgotten...

"Heathrow".

[RayTay]

98elise said:

The average driver needs 7kWh of energy per day. That's about the same as a Hob for an hour.

The majority of charging will be done over night, so the current over time drops significantly. Now you are in the realms of an outside light, or the total draw from my kitchen lights.

We have plenty of spare energy capacity to cope with that, and the grid already deals with most hobs and cookers being switched on at peak times.

We may need to throttle when your house is at peak demand, but that's very very simple.

Good post. A large American car only need 20HP as most to propel itself down a Mway at 70mph, yet some engines have over 200HP. 80% of the energy in the tank is wasted. Current IC cars pollute the air like crazy. But many think, via ignorance, that is all fine and dandy.

[RayTay]

TooMany2cvs said:

I know how electricity can be generated.

I have my doubts.

[TooMany2cvs]

RayTay said:

TooMany2cvs said:

I know how electricity can be generated.

I have my doubts.

There are about 650 flights leave Heathrow every day. Three of the five most popular destinations are transcontinental. A fairly typical airliner like a modern A320 holds 25-30,000 litres of fuel, just over 10kWh of energy per litre, so about 250,000-300,000kWh of energy in a full fuel load. Airports aim to minimise the turnaround time of jets between arrival and departure. A short-haul flight will only be on the ground for less than an hour.

And you think a tidal lagoon at Teddington is going to be anything but a drop in the ocean against that...

[MrJingles705]

RayTay said:

ook at the video I posted. That uses plastic as the electrolyte. Goodenough uses glass. That is what after 1,000s of charges there is no degradation.

I don't think I critiqued number of charge cycles? (admitedly I didn't praise it either, but I should have). Actual, practically achievable capacity was the issue I have readh about and addressed.

EDIT: Instead of getting hung up on the material, probably worth a review of Thin-film battery tech in general; plastic, glass, and various other materials all in development, and all seemingly with this same limitation right now. Which I'm not saying can't/won't be solved by stacking up very marge numbers of thin film cells, but it's not a <5 years answer right now.

Edited by MrJingles705 on Saturday 1st July 18:06

[MrJingles705]

IT charges faster, it's safer, and it will likely endure more cycles - all big improvements. There's even a japanese team doign a carbon-carbon battery based on cotton, again to get around charge speed/safety issues.

But you led out with "3 times the storage" ..... and I don't think that benefit will be proven for a while yet.

But is that a problem if you have rapid charge with safety? 200 miles range with a full recharge of a few minutes is probably goodenough (sorry, couldn't resist the pun!). People are getting hung up on the wrong thing.

[RayTay]

The reports are 3 times the energy storage, longevity, lighter, etc. All from reliable sources and institutions with progressive track records. That is something to fire optimism, not just for vehicles. Yet I read far too much negativeness. In real life I shy away from
negative people. They hold the world back.

[TooMany2cvs]

RayTay said:

The reports are 3 times the energy storage, longevity, lighter, etc. All from reliable sources and institutions with progressive track records. That is something to fire optimism, not just for vehicles. Yet I read far too much negativeness. In real life I shy away from
negative people. They hold the world back.

What you call "negativeness", I call "reality". A battery holding more charge (or the same amount in a smaller package) does not make any difference to the grid capacity and charge time issues.

[Heres Johnny]

TooMany2cvs said:

What you call "negativeness", I call "reality". A battery holding more charge (or the same amount in a smaller package) does not make any difference to the grid capacity and charge time issues.

The generation isn't the issue. A EV can, depending on which figure you use, travel about 75% of the distance on the electricity required to refine petrol or diesel - ie if a gallon of petrol takes you 40 miles, the refinement energy requirement alone would propel a EV 30 miles. Them the generation in the country has a daily cycle greater than this difference with a low demand point over night, when most EV owners charge their car over night.

There is an issue with local distribution however and there are various solutions being looked at, thankfully we'll not have an over night migration. With cars having an average life span of 10 years, if 100% of new cars sold were EV it would take 10 years to move fully across, we're at 1% at the moment. Even at 50% if would take 20 years before there were no petrol or diesel cars other than special interest cars.