EVs when the temperature drops.
Discussion
gangzoom said:
mcm87 said:
It’ll never be as convenient as a petrol/diesel car, but then that’s true all year round.
That is the sadly the ultimately the same conclusion I have come to for EVs, yet EVs cost so much more to buy compared to a combustion car.Do you honestly believe most of the car buying public will be happy to pay more for a less convenient product??
I love EVs, we are not buying another combustion car ever again, but EVs have their flaws.
I do pretty much the same journey every Friday - 122 miles round trip with about 90 minutes (7kW) charging available at the half way point
In summer, the range showing on the i3 94Ah at the start of the journey is 130 - 145 miles and I don't really 'need' to charge at the halfway point, but I do because why park next to a free charger and not use it?
Yesterday I set off with 120 miles range showing, but at halfway it was down to 44. I don't think the range had adjusted for the colder conditions at the start, but it did as I drove. So the charge was necessary to get me home.
I can see why this would put some people off an EV, even if it didn't cause them any actual problem. It does take a bit of getting used to, but I am used to it now - this will be my 5th winter with an EV
In summer, the range showing on the i3 94Ah at the start of the journey is 130 - 145 miles and I don't really 'need' to charge at the halfway point, but I do because why park next to a free charger and not use it?
Yesterday I set off with 120 miles range showing, but at halfway it was down to 44. I don't think the range had adjusted for the colder conditions at the start, but it did as I drove. So the charge was necessary to get me home.
I can see why this would put some people off an EV, even if it didn't cause them any actual problem. It does take a bit of getting used to, but I am used to it now - this will be my 5th winter with an EV
jamoor said:
gangzoom said:
mcm87 said:
It’ll never be as convenient as a petrol/diesel car, but then that’s true all year round.
That is the sadly the ultimately the same conclusion I have come to for EVs, yet EVs cost so much more to buy compared to a combustion car.Do you honestly believe most of the car buying public will be happy to pay more for a less convenient product??
I love EVs, we are not buying another combustion car ever again, but EVs have their flaws.
Gangzoom’s right, though he does blow a bit hot and cold; for most of the public EVs are still flawed.
I say that after just paying the deposit for an e-Niro. It should work fine for us as a second car but, again, ’most of the public’ don’t pay £35K for a second car, IME.
gangzoom said:
I love EVs, we are not buying another combustion car ever again, but EVs have their flaws.
Funny how people consider an advantage a flaw, simply because of what they are used too!Take our dearly loved ICE engine. Because it is a heat engine, it needs a temperature different to work, to be able to generate useful work. And because there is no practical way of stopping the flow of heat across that temperature difference, that engine necessarily looses heat, and hence looses energy, all the time!
In fact, more than 60% of the energy you put into it is just thrown overboard. For example, say you have a 150 horse power engine in your family car, to make that 150 horse power, 300 horse power is being thrown over board! yes, it's that bad! But we have got used to this massively in-efficient, wasteful and polluting machine. We accepted that incredibly wasteful consumption because there was no credible alternative.
The one side effect of all that heat being wasted all the time is that we could grab some of it and use it to warm the occupants up. How much use we can make depends on where in the world you drive and the climate of course (in hot countries, we burn even more fuel, and throw even more heat over the side to cool our cabins with A/C !).
Luckily, we found fossil fuels, with there enormous energy density (34 Million Joules per litre for gasoline!) mean't that even with our ICE being horrendously in-efficient, we could make a practical ICE powered car work, because you can pack a lot of energy into a 65 litre fuel tank (BTW, a Tesla with the biggest battery (100 kWh) is equivalent to just 10.5 litres / 2.3 gallons of gasoline...)
But remember, next time when you are on the petrol station forecourt filling up with fuel, more than 2/3rds of the fuel you put into your car is wasted! 2/3rds!! Think about that. Next time you fill up, put 20 litres in the tank, and just pump the remaining 40 litres straight onto the forecourt floor! Do that, and stand in the middle of that vast lake of wasted fuel, and you'll (just before you are arrested ;-) ) get an appreciation for how terrible the ICE actually is.
So, to say an EV is "inconvenient" because it only pretty much actually use the energy it needs is, frankly, laughable. It's like spending 10 years of your life, throwing a ten pound note into the bin every single day , but then stopping doing that and only throwing away that tenner once every month. No body in their right mind would then subsequently say "wow, that's inconvenient".........
REALIST123 said:
jamoor said:
gangzoom said:
mcm87 said:
It’ll never be as convenient as a petrol/diesel car, but then that’s true all year round.
That is the sadly the ultimately the same conclusion I have come to for EVs, yet EVs cost so much more to buy compared to a combustion car.Do you honestly believe most of the car buying public will be happy to pay more for a less convenient product??
I love EVs, we are not buying another combustion car ever again, but EVs have their flaws.
Gangzoom’s right, though he does blow a bit hot and cold; for most of the public EVs are still flawed.
I say that after just paying the deposit for an e-Niro. It should work fine for us as a second car but, again, ’most of the public’ don’t pay £35K for a second car, IME.
I think a starting point to the mitigation and solution would be manufacturers being honest and up front about it.
I said before, headline ranges are much worse than the ridiculous mpg claims that everyone takes with a pinch of salt because in my experience, my range can be 40% less then claimed - that's a significant difference.
I said before, headline ranges are much worse than the ridiculous mpg claims that everyone takes with a pinch of salt because in my experience, my range can be 40% less then claimed - that's a significant difference.
manracer said:
I think a starting point to the mitigation and solution would be manufacturers being honest and up front about it.
I said before, headline ranges are much worse than the ridiculous mpg claims that everyone takes with a pinch of salt because in my experience, my range can be 40% less then claimed - that's a significant difference.
Hard to disagree. I did find this on the e-Niro, but not from Kia. I said before, headline ranges are much worse than the ridiculous mpg claims that everyone takes with a pinch of salt because in my experience, my range can be 40% less then claimed - that's a significant difference.
Real Range between 165 - 350 mi
City - Cold Weather 230 mi
Highway - Cold Weather 165 mi
Combined - Cold Weather 195 mi
City - Mild Weather 350 mi
Highway - Mild Weather 210 mi
Combined - Mild Weather 270 mi
Still not sure how accurate that is though I have read a few long term tests that have averaged close to 5 m/kWh over significant periods.
REALIST123 said:
manracer said:
I think a starting point to the mitigation and solution would be manufacturers being honest and up front about it.
I said before, headline ranges are much worse than the ridiculous mpg claims that everyone takes with a pinch of salt because in my experience, my range can be 40% less then claimed - that's a significant difference.
Hard to disagree. I did find this on the e-Niro, but not from Kia. I said before, headline ranges are much worse than the ridiculous mpg claims that everyone takes with a pinch of salt because in my experience, my range can be 40% less then claimed - that's a significant difference.
Real Range between 165 - 350 mi
City - Cold Weather 230 mi
Highway - Cold Weather 165 mi
Combined - Cold Weather 195 mi
City - Mild Weather 350 mi
Highway - Mild Weather 210 mi
Combined - Mild Weather 270 mi
Still not sure how accurate that is though I have read a few long term tests that have averaged close to 5 m/kWh over significant periods.
What's not useful is repeating the same old lines around yeah but it's better than ICE, wear a coat, only use seat heating, pre condition, if your commute is only 15 miles then move jobs to somewhere 30 miles away then the battery can warm up.
These cars aren't cheap and I get the are trying to convince people they are great with headline ranges, but just be honest that actually, in some real world scenarios that your headline range isn't achievable, no where near.
I'm glad I'm only renting this and not committed for 2, 3 or god forbid 4 years on a lease.
I have done 50k miles in around 18 months in my 40KWH Zoe, I have found the heat pump heating to be pretty effective even when it was -7 last winter and I don't notice it making an enormous difference to the range so it must be fairly efficient.
The longest range I have achieved is 185 miles on a hot summer day and the worst is around 100 miles when it was well below zero.
I did a journey recently from Blairgowrie in Perthshire to Torphins near Banchory over the hills on the B974 and back to Perth, it was windy and hovering around zero degrees but with a little care, I managed the entire 139 mile trip on 1 charge and averaged 3.6 miles/KWH.
Driving an EV does require a different mindset from a normal car so will not suit everybody but as the range improves it will be less of an issue and people will adapt if they have to.
I will have another EV when the Zoe goes back in around 18months.
.
The longest range I have achieved is 185 miles on a hot summer day and the worst is around 100 miles when it was well below zero.
I did a journey recently from Blairgowrie in Perthshire to Torphins near Banchory over the hills on the B974 and back to Perth, it was windy and hovering around zero degrees but with a little care, I managed the entire 139 mile trip on 1 charge and averaged 3.6 miles/KWH.
Driving an EV does require a different mindset from a normal car so will not suit everybody but as the range improves it will be less of an issue and people will adapt if they have to.
I will have another EV when the Zoe goes back in around 18months.
.
jamoor said:
What do they go around buying then because I see an awful lot of these on the roads.
Our top spec - every option ticked expect sun room Lexus IS was £34k brand new, a 10 second Google search shows a BMW 320d can be leased for £230+VAT. A base spec Model 3 is £39K, yes the 0-60 time is quicker but these cars aren't been bought for 0-60 times, more M-way work for which any combustion car is miles more convenient than any EV.As I keep on pointing out I LOVE our EV, its the best car we have ever owned, but equally there is no point pretending EVs will work for everyone right now.
If your job relies you to travel from A to B to C regularly across the UK, and to a time schedule an EV is probably the worst car you can have. If you just drive to work on a fixed commute, with only occasional long trips than EVs are perfect. Most people will be in second group, but everyones needs/demands are different.
Pooh said:
I have found the heat pump heating to be pretty effective even when it was -7 last winter and I don't notice it making an enormous difference to the range so it must be fairly efficient.
The longest range I have achieved is 185 miles on a hot summer day and the worst is around 100 miles when it was well below zero.
These two sentences are complete contradictions, first you say you don't notice an enormous difference in range as temperatures falls, next you give an example of a near 50% reduction in range due to the cold - 30-50% reduction in range is actually exactly what the AAA report says to expect, and fits with my real life experience of EVs in cold weather. The longest range I have achieved is 185 miles on a hot summer day and the worst is around 100 miles when it was well below zero.
gangzoom said:
Pooh said:
I have found the heat pump heating to be pretty effective even when it was -7 last winter and I don't notice it making an enormous difference to the range so it must be fairly efficient.
The longest range I have achieved is 185 miles on a hot summer day and the worst is around 100 miles when it was well below zero.
These two sentences are complete contradictions, first you say you don't notice an enormous difference in range as temperatures falls, next you give an example of a near 50% reduction in range due to the cold - 30-50% reduction in range is actually exactly what the AAA report says to expect, and fits with my real life experience of EVs in cold weather. The longest range I have achieved is 185 miles on a hot summer day and the worst is around 100 miles when it was well below zero.
We own one of the first i3's with range extender.
It is now over five years old and apart from the silly doors, we love it.
The range extender is really useful in removing any range anxiety ... even in very cold weather, but over the five and a half years the range extender has turned on more often to "run up the motor" and charge the starter battery, than it has been used due to a flattening battery.
We always kept an ICE car for long journeys, but in summer the range in Eco Plus is around 90 miles and in winter it can be as little as 45 miles. Luckily my journey to and from work is 40 miles ad we charge overnight on a low cost tariff.
We still adore the lightweight car / small battery / range extender solution .... the weight of the range extender is less than doubling the battery capacity which still does not resolve range anxiety ... though for some it makes the car more useable until the batteries have to be renewed at far greater cost.
We have looked at the Hyundai and Kia options ... but our experience of trying to charge on longer journeys has been rather unconvincing ... the infrastructure really does need to catch up and I believe that we are due a single app that will access all charging solutions ... sometime this year ?
It is now over five years old and apart from the silly doors, we love it.
The range extender is really useful in removing any range anxiety ... even in very cold weather, but over the five and a half years the range extender has turned on more often to "run up the motor" and charge the starter battery, than it has been used due to a flattening battery.
We always kept an ICE car for long journeys, but in summer the range in Eco Plus is around 90 miles and in winter it can be as little as 45 miles. Luckily my journey to and from work is 40 miles ad we charge overnight on a low cost tariff.
We still adore the lightweight car / small battery / range extender solution .... the weight of the range extender is less than doubling the battery capacity which still does not resolve range anxiety ... though for some it makes the car more useable until the batteries have to be renewed at far greater cost.
We have looked at the Hyundai and Kia options ... but our experience of trying to charge on longer journeys has been rather unconvincing ... the infrastructure really does need to catch up and I believe that we are due a single app that will access all charging solutions ... sometime this year ?
Sambucket said:
Wow we had an ev thread that lasted almost a page before descending into combative off topic nonsense. Not bad. Getting better...
He wrote on page 3.For the millionth time stop exaggerating.
We all know that when temps drop, due to EV's stopping global warming, they will no longer be needed and stop working.
Job done.
manracer said:
When I have free charging at supercharger 10 miles away, yes it is an issue.
I assumed you had home charging available! I can see it being a bit of an issue if you don't.EVs having less range in the winter is a perfectly understandable observation and is going to effect everyone differently, but if you've got home charging and don't often use a full battery in a day, I still stand by my point that it's not much of an issue.
Daaaveee said:
manracer said:
When I have free charging at supercharger 10 miles away, yes it is an issue.
I assumed you had home charging available! I can see it being a bit of an issue if you don't.EVs having less range in the winter is a perfectly understandable observation and is going to effect everyone differently, but if you've got home charging and don't often use a full battery in a day, I still stand by my point that it's not much of an issue.
We have an i3 120ah. Gives a range of about 185 miles in perfect conditions (18 degrees, no need for air con or heating).
Yesterday when I went out in the car first thing after pre-conditioning the interior to 22 degrees due to it being below freezing outside it showed 135 miles with the heating on.
A significant drop granted but as we only cover < 30 miles most days and can charge at home a complete non issue for us. If you're buying one to do a 150 mile commute daily in all seasons then it could well be a problem, but in reality how many people are doing that?
<< I'm also noticing the drain when parked from around 2-3 miles per 24 hours up to about 10. I'm told this is because the battery has to be kept above a minimum temp so drain increases as temp drops. >>
As someone commented, this could be awkward for long-term parking after a run to an airport, for example.
Does anyone have experience of leaving an EV for significant time, especially in winter?
I did notice a Tesla in the ski resort last winter, partly because it did not stay in the same place for more than a couple of days whereas most of the cars were snowed in.
As someone commented, this could be awkward for long-term parking after a run to an airport, for example.
Does anyone have experience of leaving an EV for significant time, especially in winter?
I did notice a Tesla in the ski resort last winter, partly because it did not stay in the same place for more than a couple of days whereas most of the cars were snowed in.
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