Battery replacement cost, £15,000!!!
Discussion
Back to the £15k cost... My father in law bought a used X5 around 2010 I think, probably about 6 years old at the time. Came with an approved BMW warranty, but shorty after that had expired the auto box failed and he was given a £12k repair bill! Luckily as he was a loyal customer the dealership petitioned BMW who agreed it was premature and replaced it - thank god.
But my point is that most EV's won't need a replacement battery pack. Those that do, it will be very expensive for sure. But that's a single, very unlikely cost, vs several mechanical things that can go wrong in a far more complex ICE drivetrain. Gearbox is a classic example but far from the only thing that can let go a an ICE car ages. Overall most of us that are happy to buy second-hand will spend a lifetime buying used cars and not suffer any repair bills so massive that they exceed the value of the car and leave us without wheels, regardless of ICE/EV.
But my point is that most EV's won't need a replacement battery pack. Those that do, it will be very expensive for sure. But that's a single, very unlikely cost, vs several mechanical things that can go wrong in a far more complex ICE drivetrain. Gearbox is a classic example but far from the only thing that can let go a an ICE car ages. Overall most of us that are happy to buy second-hand will spend a lifetime buying used cars and not suffer any repair bills so massive that they exceed the value of the car and leave us without wheels, regardless of ICE/EV.
It's incredible how people seem to think that a Batteries wears out, but not the engine in their ICE!
Lets be clear:
OE's engineer there cars for a 150,000 mile and 10year lifespan.
This is for BOTH ICE and BEV.
A 150,000 mile ICE is pretty much worthless (compared to the new price) precisely because everything is worn out and can, and will, fail catastrohpically at some point in the future, and when it does, be incredibly expensive to replace due to the massive complexity:
Lets list the things in the "engine" that wear out for a BEV:
1) The battery cells
And for an ICE:
1) Pistons & rings
2) Bearings
3) Crankshaft
4) Camshaft
5) Valves, lifters, tappets, and cam phasors
6) Low presasure fuel pump
7) High pressure fuel pump
8) Fuel injectors
9) EGR valve (HP and LP)
10) Turbo charger and wastegate
11) Dual mass flywheel
12) Particulate filter
13) Exhaust catalyst
14) NOx reduction system (addblue)
15) Evaporative emissions system
16) Alternator
17) Starter motor
18) Water pump
19) Oil pump
20) timing chain
21) Varriable inlet manifold
22) Vacuum pump
And that's before we even consider the number of parts to go pop in a modern auto/dsg trans:
So yes, worry all you like about Batteries, but really, that just makes you rather blinkered to reality i'm afraid.......
Lets be clear:
OE's engineer there cars for a 150,000 mile and 10year lifespan.
This is for BOTH ICE and BEV.
A 150,000 mile ICE is pretty much worthless (compared to the new price) precisely because everything is worn out and can, and will, fail catastrohpically at some point in the future, and when it does, be incredibly expensive to replace due to the massive complexity:
Lets list the things in the "engine" that wear out for a BEV:
1) The battery cells
And for an ICE:
1) Pistons & rings
2) Bearings
3) Crankshaft
4) Camshaft
5) Valves, lifters, tappets, and cam phasors
6) Low presasure fuel pump
7) High pressure fuel pump
8) Fuel injectors
9) EGR valve (HP and LP)
10) Turbo charger and wastegate
11) Dual mass flywheel
12) Particulate filter
13) Exhaust catalyst
14) NOx reduction system (addblue)
15) Evaporative emissions system
16) Alternator
17) Starter motor
18) Water pump
19) Oil pump
20) timing chain
21) Varriable inlet manifold
22) Vacuum pump
And that's before we even consider the number of parts to go pop in a modern auto/dsg trans:
So yes, worry all you like about Batteries, but really, that just makes you rather blinkered to reality i'm afraid.......
dvs_dave said:
No, they simply let other manufacturers introduce and develop the new tech until the kinks are worked out, and only then do they copy it and introduce that tech into their own vehicles.
Toyota/Lexus builds cars for the used market, not the new one. Which is all well and good if you’re happy buying cars that are a generation behind the competition.
I'm not sure where you've got that idea about Toyota from. Their hybrid system was revolutionary when introduced, and still has no serious competitor.Toyota/Lexus builds cars for the used market, not the new one. Which is all well and good if you’re happy buying cars that are a generation behind the competition.
David-p5d5m said:
I'm not sure where you've got that idea about Toyota from. Their hybrid system was revolutionary when introduced, and still has no serious competitor.
The Prius is an amazing piece of engineering. Certainly not a system for enthusiastic drivers, but no other system has really managed to better it for pure white-good efficiency and most don't even get close. kambites said:
gottans said:
Anyway he put one on the wall outside the office and stabbed it with a scalpel (DO NOT DO THIS), cue change of tune and all batteries outside in a metal container.
Not putting them in a metal container kind of comes under the rules I suggested! I'd kind of assumed that "not sticking sharp things into them" was obvious.
Leicesterdave said:
... Apologies if already posted.
This would really put me off buying a 2nd hand one of these.
https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-...
The worst of both worlds and the benefits of none. The only reason to buy a hybrid is to save money on tax. Total garbage as anything other than very short term or maybe if made by Toyota so as to be reliable but even they have problems. Go one way or the other as the complexity in running two power units in one car while getting them to work together is stupid. Bigger stuff on the other hand like trains, buses and lorries could be beneficial. This would really put me off buying a 2nd hand one of these.
https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-...
Max_Torque said:
It's incredible how people seem to think that a Batteries wears out, but not the engine in their ICE!
Lets be clear:
OE's engineer there cars for a 150,000 mile and 10year lifespan.
This is for BOTH ICE and BEV.
A 150,000 mile ICE is pretty much worthless (compared to the new price) precisely because everything is worn out and can, and will, fail catastrohpically at some point in the future, and when it does, be incredibly expensive to replace due to the massive complexity:
Lets list the things in the "engine" that wear out for a BEV:
1) The battery cells
And for an ICE:
1) Pistons & rings
2) Bearings
3) Crankshaft
4) Camshaft
5) Valves, lifters, tappets, and cam phasors
6) Low presasure fuel pump
7) High pressure fuel pump
8) Fuel injectors
9) EGR valve (HP and LP)
10) Turbo charger and wastegate
11) Dual mass flywheel
12) Particulate filter
13) Exhaust catalyst
14) NOx reduction system (addblue)
15) Evaporative emissions system
16) Alternator
17) Starter motor
18) Water pump
19) Oil pump
20) timing chain
21) Varriable inlet manifold
22) Vacuum pump
And that's before we even consider the number of parts to go pop in a modern auto/dsg trans:
So yes, worry all you like about Batteries, but really, that just makes you rather blinkered to reality i'm afraid.......
Exactly the point. Our passat needed a new clutch at 60,000km €2500. Dad’s Audi A6 Allroad blew its gearbox at 120,000km €8,500 (we didn’t do it he sold it to a Serbian). Passat needs minimum €300 of servicing per year. Our BEV doesn’t even see the garage and isn’t expected to until 2023. The ICE drivetrain is infinitely more complicated than the BEV and is imo way more likely to go wrong. Lets be clear:
OE's engineer there cars for a 150,000 mile and 10year lifespan.
This is for BOTH ICE and BEV.
A 150,000 mile ICE is pretty much worthless (compared to the new price) precisely because everything is worn out and can, and will, fail catastrohpically at some point in the future, and when it does, be incredibly expensive to replace due to the massive complexity:
Lets list the things in the "engine" that wear out for a BEV:
1) The battery cells
And for an ICE:
1) Pistons & rings
2) Bearings
3) Crankshaft
4) Camshaft
5) Valves, lifters, tappets, and cam phasors
6) Low presasure fuel pump
7) High pressure fuel pump
8) Fuel injectors
9) EGR valve (HP and LP)
10) Turbo charger and wastegate
11) Dual mass flywheel
12) Particulate filter
13) Exhaust catalyst
14) NOx reduction system (addblue)
15) Evaporative emissions system
16) Alternator
17) Starter motor
18) Water pump
19) Oil pump
20) timing chain
21) Varriable inlet manifold
22) Vacuum pump
And that's before we even consider the number of parts to go pop in a modern auto/dsg trans:
So yes, worry all you like about Batteries, but really, that just makes you rather blinkered to reality i'm afraid.......
All cars throw bills. Cars are expensive. Anecdotal one off stories about a guy in Leicester with an 8 year old Merc without a warranty don’t represent everyone’s experience.
E350CDI. Engine failure at 110k. Dealer quotes 14k + labour.
https://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/index.php?threa...
https://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/index.php?threa...
bulldong said:
Max_Torque said:
It's incredible how people seem to think that a Batteries wears out, but not the engine in their ICE!
Lets be clear:
OE's engineer there cars for a 150,000 mile and 10year lifespan.
....
So yes, worry all you like about Batteries, but really, that just makes you rather blinkered to reality i'm afraid.......
Exactly the point. Our passat needed a new clutch at 60,000km €2500. Dad’s Audi A6 Allroad blew its gearbox at 120,000km €8,500 (we didn’t do it he sold it to a Serbian). Passat needs minimum €300 of servicing per year. Our BEV doesn’t even see the garage and isn’t expected to until 2023. The ICE drivetrain is infinitely more complicated than the BEV and is imo way more likely to go wrong. Lets be clear:
OE's engineer there cars for a 150,000 mile and 10year lifespan.
....
So yes, worry all you like about Batteries, but really, that just makes you rather blinkered to reality i'm afraid.......
All cars throw bills. Cars are expensive. Anecdotal one off stories about a guy in Leicester with an 8 year old Merc without a warranty don’t represent everyone’s experience.
These things are self correcting anyway.
If a failed battery pack is extremely rare then don't worry about it.
If it turns out it's more common than expected, any EV old enough to be at high risk of a failure would be worth a lot less as a failure would make the car worthless.. But clearly they would have to be pretty old and worn out as already we have ten year old cars with enough miles to have saved their various owners a lot of £ over running an equivalent ICE and they're way past the break even point for being greener than the ICE they replace.
So either way, don't worry about it.
If a failed battery pack is extremely rare then don't worry about it.
If it turns out it's more common than expected, any EV old enough to be at high risk of a failure would be worth a lot less as a failure would make the car worthless.. But clearly they would have to be pretty old and worn out as already we have ten year old cars with enough miles to have saved their various owners a lot of £ over running an equivalent ICE and they're way past the break even point for being greener than the ICE they replace.
So either way, don't worry about it.
Max_Torque said:
I've just designed and built a 420 kWh battery that weighs the best part of 2 tonnes!
No fires yet......... ;-(
I know the horse has well and truly bolted on the whole naming convention thing, but that would sound infinitely better if it was '1.5 gigajoules' or '1500 megajoules'.No fires yet......... ;-(
Either would do, just not poxy kilowatt-hours.
kambites said:
David-p5d5m said:
I'm not sure where you've got that idea about Toyota from. Their hybrid system was revolutionary when introduced, and still has no serious competitor.
The Prius is an amazing piece of engineering. Certainly not a system for enthusiastic drivers, but no other system has really managed to better it for pure white-good efficiency and most don't even get close. Edited by Evanivitch on Thursday 27th January 23:05
David-p5d5m said:
dvs_dave said:
No, they simply let other manufacturers introduce and develop the new tech until the kinks are worked out, and only then do they copy it and introduce that tech into their own vehicles.
Toyota/Lexus builds cars for the used market, not the new one. Which is all well and good if you’re happy buying cars that are a generation behind the competition.
I'm not sure where you've got that idea about Toyota from. Their hybrid system was revolutionary when introduced, and still has no serious competitor.Toyota/Lexus builds cars for the used market, not the new one. Which is all well and good if you’re happy buying cars that are a generation behind the competition.
Aside from the Prius, name one significant piece of tech Toyota were first out of the gate with, compared to say Mercedes?
Take Apple CarPlay rollout as an easily comparable example. From about 2015-2016 is when it became commonplace with most manufacturers. It took Toyota/Lexus another 5 years or so before they rolled it out in earnest.
BEV’s? Not a sausage to market yet. And as for the Mirai….a curiosity at best, a boondoggle in reality.
dvs_dave said:
Take Apple CarPlay rollout as an easily comparable example. From about 2015-2016 is when it became commonplace with most manufacturers. It took Toyota/Lexus another 5 years or so before they rolled it out in earnest.
BEV’s? Not a sausage to market yet. And as for the Mirai….a curiosity at best, a boondoggle in reality.
Lexus launched an EV!!!BEV’s? Not a sausage to market yet. And as for the Mirai….a curiosity at best, a boondoggle in reality.
It used the out-dated (in the UK and Europe) Chademo standard. Even Nissan have gone CCS for their Leaf replacement.
Evanivitch said:
Lexus launched an EV!!!
It used the out-dated (in the UK and Europe) Chademo standard. Even Nissan have gone CCS for their Leaf replacement.
Ha, and so irrelevant I didn’t even know it existed! Just looked it up, and yep, as expected, it’s last decade stuff. Reliable, and will make a great used buy, I’m sure.It used the out-dated (in the UK and Europe) Chademo standard. Even Nissan have gone CCS for their Leaf replacement.
stickleback123 said:
Plenty of modern mercs crap their engines out too, and I'm sure the dealer would want the same (or more) to replace your 4 cylinder diesel rattler.
Complex machines cost a lot to fix when they break, this is not news.
Also, don't buy a Mercedes if you don't want early and expensive failures. They're s
t quality and they've been st for 25 years now, if you hadn't noticed that yet you need to start paying more attention.
I don't think that's in any way comparableComplex machines cost a lot to fix when they break, this is not news.
Also, don't buy a Mercedes if you don't want early and expensive failures. They're s
t quality and they've been st for 25 years now, if you hadn't noticed that yet you need to start paying more attention.A new engine for something like a BMW M3 is around £20k
And that's for a very complex highly engineered piece of machinery
A new Lion battery for my laptop costs £50
Not to mention, if your Mercedes 2.0 TDI engine DOES fail completely, you have options
1) Rebuild the existing broken engine
2) Buy a working used engine from an online auction site or breakers yard
3) Buy an engine from a dealer (who would do this, honestly?)
Option 2 would likely be cheapest , with most common engines being no more than £1000/£1500
An example, Mercedes A180d (????) - On EBay, a drive in drive out replacement engine that's had new rings, bearings, and fluids etc, is £1500
And you can do that, and then you can still have the car serviced by any garage or dealer or mechanic or owner.
Where as, with these fancy Electric cars - You can only buy a genuine battery, or you will be locked out of the dealer network entirely, this is already happened to Tesla owners and will happen to every other EV owner, until there are restrictions on right-to-repair for EV cars.
The argument of "battery safety" is mute in my opinion.
Someone above mentioned about yearly running costs being "hundreds" for servicing
Maybe the case, and £300 a year for service + MOT is not unexpected
But they act like EVs don't have these costs too....
For example, Jaguar i-Pace forum linked to a snapshot of Tesla servicing
https://www.ipaceforums.co.uk/threads/servicing-co...
Up to £950 per year in servicing !! To service what exactly??? So if you have a Tesla Model X you're paying nearly £3k for servicing for 4 years
LOL
Maybe if you owned an E60 M5 you could get close in an ICE car :-)
As for reliability, I'm sure we all have known someone who has a car with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of miles and it just keeps on going, likewise we know someone who's had a brand new car break down completely, theory being EVs are more reliable but let's be honest it's very rare to have a "mechanical" failure in a ICE car, most problems are things like suspension bushes , or linkages / rods, rather than a piston ring
Engineered things fail on occasion shocker !
I just think that things like EVs do have a huge problem when it comes to repairing a "Major problem" as they are significantly more expensive to repair and often lock you into the dealer and ergo you're always going to be in a situation where you can't "fix it on the cheap" (note I said cheap, not to a poor standard)
Edited by CarCrazyDad on Friday 28th January 00:45
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