In flames: Paris takes 149 electric buses off the road

[ashenfie]

I have experienced car fires diesel and petrol when my next door neighbours car caught fire due to an electrical fault the diesel car had the issue slowly burnt for hours (according to the fire brigade) and eventually set the petrol car on fire and that when we heard an explosion and alerted to the issues. We evacuation of the houses took place while the fire brigade put out the cars in less than a minute. Had the problem been spotted quicker it would have been a total non event, but thats the way things are. Thats the only fire situation I've come across in 37 years of motoring. Needless to say I always have a fire extinguisher in the car now.

[Oilchange]

J4CKO said:

A quick Google came up with a FOI request and data suggest 12 bendy buses on fire (no cause so some possibly arson?)
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/487670/resp...

Doubt it would be arson but lithium is liable to spontaneous decomposition so...

[GT9]

Oilchange said:

J4CKO said:

A quick Google came up with a FOI request and data suggest 12 bendy buses on fire (no cause so some possibly arson?)
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/487670/resp...

Doubt it would be arson but lithium is liable to spontaneous decomposition so...

Firstly, you've quoted Jacko for something J_Wood said.

Secondly, the bendy buses he was referencing to date back nearly 20 years...what do you think they are propelled by?

Do you think maybe you should take a break from the anti-EV stuff, it seems it's all getting bit much for you.

[TheDeuce]

GT9 said:

Oilchange said:

J4CKO said:

A quick Google came up with a FOI request and data suggest 12 bendy buses on fire (no cause so some possibly arson?)
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/487670/resp...

Doubt it would be arson but lithium is liable to spontaneous decomposition so...

Firstly, you've quoted Jacko for something J_Wood said.

Secondly, the bendy buses he was referencing to date back nearly 20 years...what do you think they are propelled by?

Do you think maybe you should take a break from the anti-EV stuff, it seems it's all getting bit much for you.

I've become quite relaxed about the anti EV stuff peddled on these forums. I don't agree with any of it, but I take some consolidation in knowing that even the most stubborn will have to accept EV sooner or later regardless of their waffle, because it's set in stone as the future at this point. Even with the occasional bus going super-nova or car running out of juice in a comically inconvenient place.

The only intelligent thing for such posters to do would be to suggest a superior alternative - but they can't, because, taking all factors into consideration, there isn't one

[bigothunter]

TheDeuce said:

I've become quite relaxed about the anti EV stuff peddled on these forums. I don't agree with any of it, but I take some consolidation in knowing that even the most stubborn will have to accept EV sooner or later regardless of their waffle, because it's set in stone as the future at this point. Even with the occasional bus going super-nova or car running out of juice in a comically inconvenient place.

The only intelligent thing for such posters to do would be to suggest a superior alternative - but they can't, because, taking all factors into consideration, there isn't one

So there's no superior alternative?

Sustainable BUS said:

Trolleybus projects and investments are on a rise in several European countries. Switzerland, France, Austria, Italy, Poland, Czech Republic are among the countries where trolleybus networks are more diffuse. Significant renewal plans are underway. Also Berlin is considering new investments on this technology. On the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, Mexico City is giving ‘fresh air’ to its trolleybus fleet as well. Electric bus growing deployment is not the only protagonist of the energy transition in city public transport.

https://www.sustainable-bus.com/trolleybus-tramway...

[Terminator X]

Burn them, oh ...

TX.

Edit - poor Max he has to go through this st every day #saviourofmankind

[Evanivitch]

bigothunter said:

Not sure how trolley bus infrastructure is considered a better alternative? The buses will still use batteries too, just smaller.

[ZesPak]

bigothunter said:

TheDeuce said:

I've become quite relaxed about the anti EV stuff peddled on these forums. I don't agree with any of it, but I take some consolidation in knowing that even the most stubborn will have to accept EV sooner or later regardless of their waffle, because it's set in stone as the future at this point. Even with the occasional bus going super-nova or car running out of juice in a comically inconvenient place.

The only intelligent thing for such posters to do would be to suggest a superior alternative - but they can't, because, taking all factors into consideration, there isn't one

So there's no superior alternative?

Sustainable BUS said:

Trolleybus projects and investments are on a rise in several European countries. Switzerland, France, Austria, Italy, Poland, Czech Republic are among the countries where trolleybus networks are more diffuse. Significant renewal plans are underway. Also Berlin is considering new investments on this technology. On the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, Mexico City is giving ‘fresh air’ to its trolleybus fleet as well. Electric bus growing deployment is not the only protagonist of the energy transition in city public transport.

https://www.sustainable-bus.com/trolleybus-tramway...

So the alternative to an EV bus is an EV bus that can charge while it's driving?
ok...

[ashenfie]

TheDeuce said:

GT9 said:

Oilchange said:

J4CKO said:

A quick Google came up with a FOI request and data suggest 12 bendy buses on fire (no cause so some possibly arson?)
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/487670/resp...

Doubt it would be arson but lithium is liable to spontaneous decomposition so...

Firstly, you've quoted Jacko for something J_Wood said.

Secondly, the bendy buses he was referencing to date back nearly 20 years...what do you think they are propelled by?

Do you think maybe you should take a break from the anti-EV stuff, it seems it's all getting bit much for you.

I've become quite relaxed about the anti EV stuff peddled on these forums. I don't agree with any of it, but I take some consolidation in knowing that even the most stubborn will have to accept EV sooner or later regardless of their waffle, because it's set in stone as the future at this point. Even with the occasional bus going super-nova or car running out of juice in a comically inconvenient place.

The only intelligent thing for such posters to do would be to suggest a superior alternative - but they can't, because, taking all factors into consideration, there isn't one

I think there are better alternatives but sadly as many can't distinguish a kettle from a car it's unlikely in the short term they be adopted. An Ev without a lithium battery is an eco must in the long term

[GT9]

ashenfie said:

I think there are better alternatives but sadly as many can't distinguish a kettle from a car

Why not dispense with the childish digs and put a cohesive argument forward for your better alternatives.

[bigothunter]

Evanivitch said:

Not sure how trolley bus infrastructure is considered a better alternative? The buses will still use batteries too, just smaller.

What makes you believe trolleybuses have batteries for motive power? Unless they are hybrids of course.

Regardless smaller lower energy density batteries tend to present less fire risk.

[bigothunter]

ZesPak said:

So the alternative to an EV bus is an EV bus that can charge while it's driving?
ok...

What makes you believe trolleybuses need batteries for motive power?

[Evanivitch]

bigothunter said:

What makes you believe trolleybuses have batteries for motive power? Unless they are hybrids of course.

Because batteries are inherent in nearly all electrical drivetrains as they provide better management of peak power demand as well as regenerative power and low-speed off-grid manoeuvring.

For example, Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles still have batteries, but you wouldn't call it a hybrid.

bigothunter said:

Regardless smaller lower energy density batteries tend to present less fire risk.

Citation needed.

Whilst fewer cells obviously reduces the risk of a bad cell, smaller batteries tend to be placed under greater stress.

[rxe]

Surely the major difference is the style of fire.

I’ve experienced a diesel fire in a piece of agri equipment that I was moving for a farmer. It had been working hard all day, I drove it back to the farm and there was an “oooh fk, that’s a lot smoke” moment. Bailed out, grabbing the foam extinguisher on the way, put the fire out, and waited for a pull from a tractor. The handler needed a load of new pipe work, new rad and some paint.

Contrast with an electric car that seems to burn with the intensity of a star, cannot be put out without a massive tank of water (would have been a bit hard for the telehandler I was driving), and happens at seemingly random moments when the car is not moving.

[bigothunter]

Evanivitch said:

bigothunter said:

What makes you believe trolleybuses have batteries for motive power? Unless they are hybrids of course.

Because batteries are inherent in nearly all electrical drivetrains as they provide better management of peak power demand as well as regenerative power and low-speed off-grid manoeuvring.

I thought trolleybuses returned regenerative power to their overhead network?

Do all modern trolleybuses employ batteries to enable low-speed off-grid manoeuvring (unlike classic trolleybuses) ? Huge difference in energy storage required between full BEV and manoeuvring around the depot.

Evanivitch said:

bigothunter said:

Regardless smaller lower energy density batteries tend to present less fire risk.

Citation needed.

Whilst fewer cells obviously reduces the risk of a bad cell, smaller batteries tend to be placed under greater stress.

Not if those batteries are coupled to the network.


Not a citation but someone already provided an insight...

Evanivitch said:

Interestingly, and only after a quick Google, these busses appear to use Li-Po batteries, which is quite different to the majority of Chinese-derived busses which use the more stable, less prone to thermal-runaway LiFePO4 (LFP) chemistry.

I wonder if we will see legislation that mandates LFP in certain applications. It's lower energy density and output, but also low-cobalt content.

[bigothunter]

rxe said:

Surely the major difference is the style of fire.

I’ve experienced a diesel fire in a piece of agri equipment that I was moving for a farmer. It had been working hard all day, I drove it back to the farm and there was an “oooh fk, that’s a lot smoke” moment. Bailed out, grabbing the foam extinguisher on the way, put the fire out, and waited for a pull from a tractor. The handler needed a load of new pipe work, new rad and some paint.

Police specify diesel riot vans not petrol, simply because setting diesel alight is difficult and it's not explosive.

rxe said:

Contrast with an electric car that seems to burn with the intensity of a star, cannot be put out without a massive tank of water (would have been a bit hard for the telehandler I was driving), and happens at seemingly random moments when the car is not moving.

My understanding is that batteries must be cooled to stop them burning. Apparently that can take days. Probably best to submerge the burning vehicle.

[Evanivitch]

bigothunter said:

Evanivitch said:

bigothunter said:

What makes you believe trolleybuses have batteries for motive power? Unless they are hybrids of course.

Because batteries are inherent in nearly all electrical drivetrains as they provide better management of peak power demand as well as regenerative power and low-speed off-grid manoeuvring.

I thought trolleybuses returned regenerative power to their overhead network?

Do all modern trolleybuses employ batteries to enable low-speed off-grid manoeuvring (unlike classic trolleybuses) ? Huge difference in energy storage required between full BEV and manoeuvring around the depot.

Evanivitch said:

bigothunter said:

Regardless smaller lower energy density batteries tend to present less fire risk.

Citation needed.

Whilst fewer cells obviously reduces the risk of a bad cell, smaller batteries tend to be placed under greater stress.

Not if those batteries are coupled to the network.


Not a citation but someone already provided an insight...

Evanivitch said:

Interestingly, and only after a quick Google, these busses appear to use Li-Po batteries, which is quite different to the majority of Chinese-derived busses which use the more stable, less prone to thermal-runaway LiFePO4 (LFP) chemistry.

I wonder if we will see legislation that mandates LFP in certain applications. It's lower energy density and output, but also low-cobalt content.

Some trolley busses can return power to the overhead, but it's not standard and it requires further management on the infrastructure side to avoid voltage peaks.

Obviously there's a difference in the storage capacity needed, but that doesn't make necessarily mitigate the risk of a battery fire.

And there are plenty of Chinese-made and derived BEV busses that use LFP chemistry already. Hence my comments that it's less common to see Li-Po batteries in such applications.

[TheDeuce]

ashenfie said:

TheDeuce said:

GT9 said:

Oilchange said:

J4CKO said:

A quick Google came up with a FOI request and data suggest 12 bendy buses on fire (no cause so some possibly arson?)
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/487670/resp...

Doubt it would be arson but lithium is liable to spontaneous decomposition so...

Firstly, you've quoted Jacko for something J_Wood said.

Secondly, the bendy buses he was referencing to date back nearly 20 years...what do you think they are propelled by?

Do you think maybe you should take a break from the anti-EV stuff, it seems it's all getting bit much for you.

I've become quite relaxed about the anti EV stuff peddled on these forums. I don't agree with any of it, but I take some consolidation in knowing that even the most stubborn will have to accept EV sooner or later regardless of their waffle, because it's set in stone as the future at this point. Even with the occasional bus going super-nova or car running out of juice in a comically inconvenient place.

The only intelligent thing for such posters to do would be to suggest a superior alternative - but they can't, because, taking all factors into consideration, there isn't one

I think there are better alternatives but sadly as many can't distinguish a kettle from a car it's unlikely in the short term they be adopted. An Ev without a lithium battery is an eco must in the long term

We're headed towards BEV's without Li-ion cells - there are hundreds of billions of ££££ invested in the race to that happy future right now. But that is still a BEV future, it's the same direction as we're now headed, it's the next evolution of what BEV is, it's not an alternative at all.

[bigothunter]

TheDeuce said:

We're headed towards BEV's without Li-ion cells - there are hundreds of billions of ££££ invested in the race to that happy future right now. But that is still a BEV future, it's the same direction as we're now headed, it's the next evolution of what BEV is, it's not an alternative at all.

A trolleybus is not a BEV. A hybrid* trolleybus makes use of batteries where its network can't.

* My terminology which some don't like...

[TheDeuce]

bigothunter said:

TheDeuce said:

We're headed towards BEV's without Li-ion cells - there are hundreds of billions of ££££ invested in the race to that happy future right now. But that is still a BEV future, it's the same direction as we're now headed, it's the next evolution of what BEV is, it's not an alternative at all.

A trolleybus is not a BEV. A hybrid* trolleybus makes use of batteries where its network can't.

* My terminology which some don't like...

Eh? I'm not talking about trolleybuses