The push for us to have electric cars

[anonymous-user]

otolith said:

OpulentBob said:

otolith said:

The more expensive models came first, the range of cheaper EVs is expanding massively and has a decade to fill every sector. The whole premise of the affordability issue is nonsense.

It really is not nonsense, and that you think it is, is quite arrogant and vulgar, sorry. I'm a professional, working, homeowner. I would struggle to afford to go out tomorrow and buy an EV. I would have to sell most if not all of the rest of my cars, or my lifestyle (inc mrs, kids etc) would take a tidy hit.

Just read that back to yourself, will you.

You've got a 911, an E class, a Hilux, a Hiace, and a Ceed. And your index of affordability is being able to go out and add an EV to that fleet without it hurting?

The 911, the E class and the Hilux each had a new sticker price which would buy a very nice EV. You aren't comparing used prices to new prices are you?

Yes, that is entirely my index of affordability. Just like everyone elses. We could all sell our houses and buy Bentleys, but that's not sustainable or realistic. And I don't buy every car new.

My car "collection" os irrelevalnt. Some are working vehicles (the Hilux is a 10 year old tractor, hardly aspirational!), some are 40 year old classics that cost very little to own and I've had for years, others are worth 50p and I'll be lucky if they start! Getting myself in to an EV that would cover all my needs would be looking at one of the big new Hyundais etc, at what, £50k all in, charging unit at home etc?

Affordability is a big factor for the vast majority of people. We don't all own companies that allow preferential BIK etc. I stand by my point that assuming anyone can go out and buy an EV is a bit vulgar. Nothing personal, I just don't think it's realistic.

[Dog Star]

BroadsRS6 said:

Expensive, silent, single gear electrics

Are you on crack or something? Show me how much a replacement engine and/or gearbox costs for your car. What will it cost when it breaks - these big German motors are so famed for being super reliable. Not! What's the servicing costs like on one?

What's the problem with them being silent? Oh don't tell me - you love the noise it makes. Well I've news for you - 99.9% of the public are sick to death of either chavs or "car enthusiasts" and noisy cars - it's not your car in isolation, there's hundreds of these selfish cretins thundering around. They think you're a tt.

BroadsRS6 said:

I couldn't wait to fire up 10 cylinders of pure evil,

<cringe> Are you ten years old? Do you get a "sense of occasion" when you start it up in the morning? Do you enjoy the "drama" of a manual gearbox? God strewth! You sound like Alan Partridge.

I've not got an electric car, but I'm in no way so blinkered that I cannot see that they're the future, are way superior to an ICE car in just about every way - the last objection most people have is range, and that argument is fading fast.

[Pan Pan Pan]

BroadsRS6 said:

A used Leaf or Zoe, omg how exciting to look forward to. 180 bhp Fiesta ST turbo every time if i was 20 years old again. Or maybe the best Golf GTI i could find at my budget.
I sense i'll be hanging on to petrol power for as long as the control freaks allow me to and since this is PISTON heads i can but hope there are a few of you who feel the same?

They may be changing the name of this website to Brushless Motorheads at some time in the future?

[GroundZero]

Dog Star said:

<cringe> Are you ten years old? Do you get a "sense of occasion" when you start it up in the morning? Do you enjoy the "drama" of a manual gearbox? God strewth! You sound like Alan Partridge.

I've not got an electric car, but I'm in no way so blinkered that I cannot see that they're the future, are way superior to an ICE car in just about every way - the last objection most people have is range, and that argument is fading fast.

<cringe> also at how old people sound with their desires for mobility carriages and the want for younger generations to not have the fun that they enjoyed when they were once young.

[otolith]

OpulentBob said:

Affordability is a big factor for the vast majority of people. We don't all own companies that allow preferential BIK etc. I stand by my point that assuming anyone can go out and buy an EV is a bit vulgar. Nothing personal, I just don't think it's realistic.

But anybody can go out and buy a brand new petrol car, can they?

There is a huge expansion of cheaper models going on, and over the next few years the secondhand market will start to fill. The current plan is no ICEs without hybridisation after 2030 and no hybrids after 2035. That's a very long timescale for a shift in the fleet.

[ddom]

Dog Star said:

<cringe> Are you ten years old? Do you get a "sense of occasion" when you start it up in the morning? Do you enjoy the "drama" of a manual gearbox? God strewth! You sound like Alan Partridge.

I've not got an electric car, but I'm in no way so blinkered that I cannot see that they're the future, are way superior to an ICE car in just about every way - the last objection most people have is range, and that argument is fading fast.

Why is it ‘cringe’ to enjoy the characteristics of ICE? Silverstone Classic, Kop Hill, Bicester Scramble, Goodwood…I’d say that they’re a few who would disagree

[Riley Blue]

GroundZero said:

Dog Star said:

<cringe> Are you ten years old? Do you get a "sense of occasion" when you start it up in the morning? Do you enjoy the "drama" of a manual gearbox? God strewth! You sound like Alan Partridge.

I've not got an electric car, but I'm in no way so blinkered that I cannot see that they're the future, are way superior to an ICE car in just about every way - the last objection most people have is range, and that argument is fading fast.

<cringe> also at how old people sound with their desires for mobility carriages and the want for younger generations to not have the fun that they enjoyed when they were once young.

<cringe> further at the desperate generalisations some people make in a vain attempt to justify their point of view.

[blueg33]

Evanivitch said:

blueg33 said:

Not sure that answered my question, lots of things are covered by regulation, but that doesn't negate environmental impact.

Of course everything causes pollution, the issue is the extent of the pollution, how easily it can be managed/reversed, the scale and longevity of the impact etc

I am not sure whether the move to electric cars has considered the "whole" impact and looked at what is acceptable and what isn't. Obviously global warming is an issue and fossil fuels in cars may be contributing, but 50 years ago no one thought of that. What hasn't been thought about with elec cars?

I really don't think that car buyers or the government know and understand the trade offs of one vs the other.

It's literally a requirement of any engineering programme to do a full cradle to grave environmental analysis of the product. If you don't realise that then you've clearly never been involved in such developments.

It literally isn't a requirement as soon as you are looking at global supply chains. If you don't realise that then you have never been involved in global supply.

I put that because you comment was belittling and didn't answer the question posed - ie a pathetic response

I asked a fair question, and no of course I haven't been involved in battery manufacture, nor have 90% of the world population. I am however, involved in global supply chains and product development in the UK. Its a fact that raw materials sourced from the developing world and some developed countries do not meet standards we would expect.

Don't you think that an adult answer would have helped inform the debate? Or maybe you don't actually know, in which case your response was a waste of your and my time.

Edited by blueg33 on Monday 5th July 10:05

[PH User]

BroadsRS6 said:

Even if i relented in my stance that no single speed silent car will ever offer me what my 760 bhp of twin turbo V10 petrol does; even if i unfortunately had to go and buy electric at some point, HOW do they expect people to afford them?
If we are talking run of the mill cars for the majority of people i see that little electric hatchbacks are like £33,000 to buy new. Who the hell is going to do that other than a select few people? Seriously, if my lad wanted his next car would he take a loan out the amount of half a decent flat in some parts of the UK to get a Nissan Micra electric or would he spend £8,000 on a nice used Fiesta ST and stay debt free?
I realise i am old school in this and apparently i'm dreadful for the environment with the vehicles i own and love, but am i the ONLY person who would never spend a fortune on a poxy little electric hatchback?
If i'm guilty of some terrible sin, shoot me now i guess!

How much did your car cost when brand new?

[Alextodrive]

BroadsRS6 said:

A used Leaf or Zoe, omg how exciting to look forward to. 180 bhp Fiesta ST turbo every time if i was 20 years old again. Or maybe the best Golf GTI i could find at my budget.
I sense i'll be hanging on to petrol power for as long as the control freaks allow me to and since this is PISTON heads i can but hope there are a few of you who feel the same?

How exciting to look forward to?

I agree. It's not at all. But that misses the point.

Not in your sons coming of age, but in your grandchildren or their children.

The thought process wont be, what car am I going to have fun in, it will be what can I afford that will get me from A to B.

Their priorities will be doing as minimal further damage to the environment as best they can given what a mess our generations have made for them.

[PH User]

Dog Star said:

<cringe> Are you ten years old? Do you get a "sense of occasion" when you start it up in the morning? Do you enjoy the "drama" of a manual gearbox? God strewth! You sound like Alan Partridge.

I've not got an electric car, but I'm in no way so blinkered that I cannot see that they're the future, are way superior to an ICE car in just about every way - the last objection most people have is range, and that argument is fading fast.

Surely all of us car enthusiasts act like 10 year old boys at times?

Electric cars have their benefits.

Petrol cars have their benefits.

[J4CKO]

OpulentBob said:

Max_Torque said:

blueg33 said:

How bad is battery production for the environment? A sustainable power source is much more than just CO2. My fear is pollution caused by battery production and disposal.

Serously, do some reseach, this has be thoughly debunked about a million times on the internet and about 100 times on very EV thread on PH.

Last week, remember the fkING SEA WAS ON FIRE in the Gulf of Mexico

What's that got to do with EVs? That was a gas pipeline wasn't it?

Might as well say "yeah but look at Chernobyl/Bhutan/Fukushima/any industrial accident". A bit of the the roof blew off my parents house a few years back, grr, bloody combustion engines.

Its an oil platform, oil extraction releases gas, gas goes boom. And regardless of that, its Fossil fuel extraction which is what we need to get away from over time. We are using stored up energy from sunlight that hit the earth millions of years ago, plenty of sunlight still arrives which can be harvested director via the wind and tide, and its doesn't come with loads of crap going into the atmosphere.

Moaning about EVs environmental impact as a petrolhead is a bit like Fred West criticising another builders wonky brickwork.

Thing is, people get familiar with stuff and have an affinity with it, even if it is bad for them, And petrol and diesel cars do tend to be bad for us, even though we love them dearly. We will defend things we are familiar with to the death, having sometimes never tried the alternative.

And especially as males I think we perhaps based our identities and stuff too much on cars, its like Americans having grown up with, and bonded over massive guns, they will fight to the death to keep them despite thousands dying because of them every year.

The people who tend to decry EV's also tend to think they are too alien, unfamiliar and expensive, they want to stay in their 2008 320D, which like an EV they couldnt have afforded when it was new either. The market has to mature, the volume needs to increase and the trickle down of second hand EV's needs to filter through to those who buy secondhand cars, and most will, when they get an eight year old EV be happy with it like they were with their diesel or petrol car.

I think a lot of men feel like not having any noise and fury to be sort of emasculating as well, cant announce your presence with a bellow of V8ness or some DSG farts if its silent or sounds like a Tron clip.

Current EV's will be superseded by much more capable models, it always happens, at the moment they are viable for some, for most usage but the tipping point will come where people will wonder why they bothered with ICE cars and why they were worried. A lot of households have more than one car these days so the transition will be one car gets replaced with an EV, confidence built (or not I guess) and possibly the second or third one.

We are sing less electricity these days than twenty years ago for various reasons, the grid coped then, it copes now, it isnt an extra lightbulb away from shutting down. Oil companies are smelling the coffee and diversifying into electricity, companies are installing charging capacity, battery tech is being beavered away at.

I don't want an EV at the moment, but I can abstract my own motivations, preferences, history and not get emotional about it as I really dont think anyone is coming for my ICE car just yet, like nobody has banned horses and there are still loads of classics around from the dawn of motoring onwards, you don't need to choose a hill to die on.

It will organically shift, it will get more compelling to own an EV with every passing month as the infrastructure, range and prices get more appealing, normal punters will defect in their droves as they are better for more people more of the time, or soon will be. The electric motor, energy storage aside is just a much better, simpler device for moving a vehicle and that is too compelling for folk to ignore.

I will continue to enjoy ICE, at 50 now I may never own an EV but dont feel the need to slag them off and get all upset about them.

[Pan Pan Pan]

Dog Star said:

BroadsRS6 said:

Expensive, silent, single gear electrics

Are you on crack or something? Show me how much a replacement engine and/or gearbox costs for your car. What will it cost when it breaks - these big German motors are so famed for being super reliable. Not! What's the servicing costs like on one?

What's the problem with them being silent? Oh don't tell me - you love the noise it makes. Well I've news for you - 99.9% of the public are sick to death of either chavs or "car enthusiasts" and noisy cars - it's not your car in isolation, there's hundreds of these selfish cretins thundering around. They think you're a tt.

BroadsRS6 said:

I couldn't wait to fire up 10 cylinders of pure evil,

<cringe> Are you ten years old? Do you get a "sense of occasion" when you start it up in the morning? Do you enjoy the "drama" of a manual gearbox? God strewth! You sound like Alan Partridge.

I've not got an electric car, but I'm in no way so blinkered that I cannot see that they're the future, are way superior to an ICE car in just about every way - the last objection most people have is range, and that argument is fading fast.

Providing charge points in their millions around the country should be possible, but until that has happened EV range will be an issue. I suspect that some might also be waiting to see which system wins out. EV`s or hydrogen cars, No one want to be left having gone for the Beta Max version of cars.
Whichever system proves to be the most `convenient' for the majority to use, will likely be the winner.

[kiseca]

I removed the bias from the OP to see if the point showed through.

BroadsRS6 said:

I have a 760bhp twin turbo V10. How can people afford electric cars?

If we are talking run of the mill cars for the majority of people I see hatchbacks are like £33,000 to buy new. If my lad wanted his next car he could buy half a flat in Scotland or get a used car for £8000.

Am I the only person who does not fancy an electric hatchback?

Nope, I don't see the point in this thread.

[Pan Pan Pan]

The situation can no doubt be changed for the better, but electricity has one of the worst government fuel factors of all the fuels currently available to the UK public.
When that condition has changed, and electricity has a better government fuel factor, then EV`s will be less polluting than the ICE. We are not there yet.

[Mr E]

Oh Christ. Not this st again.

[blueg33]

Max_Torque said:

blueg33 said:

How bad is battery production for the environment? A sustainable power source is much more than just CO2. My fear is pollution caused by battery production and disposal.

Serously, do some reseach, this has be thoughly debunked about a million times on the internet and about 100 times on very EV thread on PH.

Last week, remember the fkING SEA WAS ON FIRE in the Gulf of Mexico

Not sure of the relevance of the Gulf of Mexico and whatever was happening there

Has pollution by battery manufacture been thoroughly debunked? I have done research, albeit quickly this morning and the indications would suggest that is hasn't been thoroughly debunked, unless you read the EV biased articles.

Please can you point me to some genuine peer reviewed scientific research as you seem to be an expert and I genuinely want to know what the position is.

[anonymous-user]

Do people know what a Knee Jerk reaction is? And do people understand that our Governance is tied explicitly to over-reacting to such events?

Take the cosmetic plastic cladding of high rise tower blocks as an example:

Prior to 14 June 2017, you literally coulld not have found more than a couple of references to such cladding outside of some very specialist building press.

For years, people had being going about their business and living in buildings clad with these flamable materials and yet the press, the population and above all, the Polliticians cared precisely zero.


Post Grenfell, it was a suddenly a hot (sic) topic. Tens of thousands of column inches, hours of TV news, hundreds of politicans putting on their best "serious" faces and proclaming they wouldn't stop at anything to find out what happened and hold someone, anyone, accountable. Suddenly cladding was being ripped off everywhere. Despite the probability of a large high rise building fire being PRECISELY THE SAME (about 1 every tens years that results in a death) after the Grenfell fire as before, suddenly things "had to be done".

This is a classic knee jerk reaction, and forms a very real part of the way us humans live and govern our lives. We cannot save everyone, prevent every incident or accident, so when a very rare event happens, we naturally overreact. We make up for our complacency with often a very poorly judged reaction, clouded by the just occured event, and biased because suddenly this incident seems to be far more important (in the grand scheme of things) that it actual was.


Now what has this to do with EVs i hear you all ask?

Simples.

Consider the day that rising sea levels cause the Thames barrier to be overtopped and the houses of parliment sit under 3 feet of dirty water.

On that day, that is when your "Freedoms" as a 1st world private car driver are extremely likely to get limited. It's going to be hard to oppose aggressive limitation when you are sat in a cold pool of stinking river water. We've seen it before, with the London Embankment itself driven to be built because the smell of rotting sewerage was so strong in the House forcing politicians to react, despite years of clear warning.


People on here are suggesting that we are being "forced" into EV's. Trust me, not yet we aren't. But i think we will, and god, the moaning when that happens is going to be incredible.........

[Pixelpeep Z4]

thread said:

guy who runs and maintains a 760 bhp twin turbo V10 petrol worries about how he'll afford an electric car.

Surely this belongs in the joke section ?

[RobbyJ]

BroadsRS6 said:

Even if i relented in my stance that no single speed silent car will ever offer me what my 760 bhp of twin turbo V10 petrol does; even if i unfortunately had to go and buy electric at some point, HOW do they expect people to afford them?
If we are talking run of the mill cars for the majority of people i see that little electric hatchbacks are like £33,000 to buy new. Who the hell is going to do that other than a select few people? Seriously, if my lad wanted his next car would he take a loan out the amount of half a decent flat in some parts of the UK to get a Nissan Micra electric or would he spend £8,000 on a nice used Fiesta ST and stay debt free?
I realise i am old school in this and apparently i'm dreadful for the environment with the vehicles i own and love, but am i the ONLY person who would never spend a fortune on a poxy little electric hatchback?
If i'm guilty of some terrible sin, shoot me now i guess!

I used to have a C6 RS6 Stage 2, had it for 3 years and had to have the engine out twice at over 5K a pop. Great car but a straight line one trick pony.

My last car was a stage 2 RS7, 747ps. Really great in a straight line, crap round corners again like the C6. Again nothing went wrong but obviously still very expensive to run.

I've now gone to a 2016 Tesla Model S P90DL, just thought I'd give it a go. I haven't regretted it one bit. Yes whilst the tech is better the interior is rubbish in comparison and not at all special. It handles way better than any S/RS Audi I've ever had, still far from perfect but it actually turns in and grips. The running costs though, it's almost free compared to the Audi's.

It's nowhere near as fast past 80mph but in the real world it's brutally fast, way quicker than my Audi's, the instant torque is awesome. I sometimes miss the noise but my neighbors certainly don't and you can have a stealth blast without turning a head.

Personally I'm enjoying the change very much. The additional purchase cost won't take too long to pay itself back considering the annual running costs, happy days!

The big plus is I can get my whole family in it comfortably unlike the RS7 or even the RS6 as the Tesla's back seat has 3 proper seats and a flat floor. Now we can use it as the main family car for trips and I can have some fun, it's a win win for me.