Discussion
jinba-ittai said:
kambites said:
Which EVs are performing that badly? Sounds deeply tempting unless they're rubbish or ridiculously expensive new!
There's quite a few, mostly the Stellantis stuff which arguably have unrealistic list prices. But < £20K for a 1 year old EV is decent compared to some of the crazy ICE prices out there at the moment
The EC4 is a really nice car IMO. Same battery unit as the Corsa / 208 / DS3 / Mokka E etc etc etc which may not be the best but it's a slightly bigger car than those (but not much heavier) which just makes it a bit more usable.
I don't say this as an owner - but there have also been some quite favourable reviews in terms of efficiency etc of the car on YT. And with the citroen smooth/ soft quiet thing going on, it suits the EV 'thing' quite well i think.
I don't say this as an owner - but there have also been some quite favourable reviews in terms of efficiency etc of the car on YT. And with the citroen smooth/ soft quiet thing going on, it suits the EV 'thing' quite well i think.
Edited by M1C on Tuesday 13th June 09:55
M1C said:
The EC4 is a really nice car IMO. Same battery unit as the Corsa / 208 / DS3 / Mokka E etc etc etc which may not be the best but it's a slightly bigger car than those (but not much heavier) which just makes it a bit more usable.
I don't say this as an owner - but there have also been some quite favourable reviews in terms of efficiency etc of the car on YT. And with the citroen smooth/ soft quiet thing going on, it suits the EV 'thing' quite well i think.
Yes looking at reviews, for someone who doesn't want anything remotely "sporty" it looks very well judged. Range will be a killer for some people but for a lot of use-cases a real-world range of ~140 miles is perfectly adequate. I don't say this as an owner - but there have also been some quite favourable reviews in terms of efficiency etc of the car on YT. And with the citroen smooth/ soft quiet thing going on, it suits the EV 'thing' quite well i think.
ETA: Although actually the cheapest e-C4s on autotrader seem to be about £19k and you can get a new one for <£29k so the depreciation is more like 35% of value lost over two years which sadly isn't as bad as implied above!
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th June 10:46
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mg/mg4/360459/new-mg...
This plus the upcoming roadster will lend a lot of kudos to the MG badge I think.
Amazing that such levels of power can now be had for the sort of money that is within reach of most average wage earners. It's not as of they've skimped on the rest of the car either.
I'll await first drive reviews but it looks to be a serious hot hatch effort.
This plus the upcoming roadster will lend a lot of kudos to the MG badge I think.
Amazing that such levels of power can now be had for the sort of money that is within reach of most average wage earners. It's not as of they've skimped on the rest of the car either.
I'll await first drive reviews but it looks to be a serious hot hatch effort.
TheDeuce said:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mg/mg4/360459/new-mg...
This plus the upcoming roadster will lend a lot of kudos to the MG badge I think.
Amazing that such levels of power can now be had for the sort of money that is within reach of most average wage earners. It's not as of they've skimped on the rest of the car either.
I'll await first drive reviews but it looks to be a serious hot hatch effort.
239 mile WLTP range, which from experience of the Trophy means real range of 180 in anything other than ideal conditions and that’s from 100 to crawling empty, It’s just not good enough for a car that’s going to sell fo £36k unfortunately,This plus the upcoming roadster will lend a lot of kudos to the MG badge I think.
Amazing that such levels of power can now be had for the sort of money that is within reach of most average wage earners. It's not as of they've skimped on the rest of the car either.
I'll await first drive reviews but it looks to be a serious hot hatch effort.
This is a car that doesn’t need to exist. They’ll stiffen the suspension, add weight and make it awful and kill the range all for the sake of some headline 0-60 figures that no one will really practically ever do. Nice for a concept car but seems so daft for a brand that’s marketed itself of good value practical cars.
If a hot hatch is judged purely on BHP alone, I’m sure this ticks all the boxes but I’m not convinced it’ll actually be any good otherwise,
Edited by LivLL on Saturday 8th July 18:53
LivLL said:
TheDeuce said:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mg/mg4/360459/new-mg...
This plus the upcoming roadster will lend a lot of kudos to the MG badge I think.
Amazing that such levels of power can now be had for the sort of money that is within reach of most average wage earners. It's not as of they've skimped on the rest of the car either.
I'll await first drive reviews but it looks to be a serious hot hatch effort.
239 mile WLTP range, which from experience of the Trophy means real range of 180 in anything other than ideal conditions and that’s from 100 to crawling empty, It’s just not good enough for a car that’s going to sell fo £36k unfortunately,This plus the upcoming roadster will lend a lot of kudos to the MG badge I think.
Amazing that such levels of power can now be had for the sort of money that is within reach of most average wage earners. It's not as of they've skimped on the rest of the car either.
I'll await first drive reviews but it looks to be a serious hot hatch effort.
This is a car that doesn’t need to exist. They’ll stiffen the suspension, add weight and make it awful and kill the range all for the sake of some headline 0-60 figures that no one will really practically ever do. Nice for a concept car but seems so daft for a brand that’s marketed itself of good value practical cars.
If a hot hatch is judged purely on BHP alone, I’m sure this ticks all the boxes but I’m not convinced it’ll actually be any good otherwise,
Edited by LivLL on Saturday 8th July 18:53
Hot hatch is for a bloke that needs a practical car but wants sports car fun. Show me any hot hatch and I'll be able to tell you that it could be a more sensible car, including range/economy, in several ways.
But there are reasons people are moving to EV and some if those people will want a hot hatch!
They'll especially want one with over 400hp and very high spec for mid spec golf GTi money.
As for how much of a hot hatch it is beyond the 0-60 sprint.. as I said, let's wait for the first road tests. I think it's a good sign however that they have uprated the brakes and revised the suspension.
TheDeuce said:
I think you're missing the point. Most hot hatch drivers don't generally do long trips - if they did, they'd have a car focused on comfort and mile munching.
Hot hatch is for a bloke that needs a practical car but wants sports car fun. Show me any hot hatch and I'll be able to tell you that it could be a more sensible car, including range/economy, in several ways.
But there are reasons people are moving to EV and some if those people will want a hot hatch!
They'll especially want one with over 400hp and very high spec for mid spec golf GTi money.
As for how much of a hot hatch it is beyond the 0-60 sprint.. as I said, let's wait for the first road tests. I think it's a good sign however that they have uprated the brakes and revised the suspension.
Agreed. 180 mile real world range would comfortably manage my 3x a week commute and a bit of local driving. Weekly free charge at work, happy days.Hot hatch is for a bloke that needs a practical car but wants sports car fun. Show me any hot hatch and I'll be able to tell you that it could be a more sensible car, including range/economy, in several ways.
But there are reasons people are moving to EV and some if those people will want a hot hatch!
They'll especially want one with over 400hp and very high spec for mid spec golf GTi money.
As for how much of a hot hatch it is beyond the 0-60 sprint.. as I said, let's wait for the first road tests. I think it's a good sign however that they have uprated the brakes and revised the suspension.
If it's fun to drive on that commute, then it's comfortably worth the cash.
However, there's the ever present knowledge that the reason why it's able to be such value is because the Chinese government is subsidising it to steal market share and bury the existing players. I'm not huge fans of most of the existing players, but I'm even less a fan of the Chinese government.
Had ours 2 weeks now and loving it. Seeing and experiencing a range of about 260 miles with the climate on and slow fan. It handles well and even the wife likes driving it and she’s a proper snob. The colour makes me smile too. Did a 20 mile return trip last week and saw 6 miles per kw It is generally about 4.6 miles per kw over several hundred miles. Very pleased overall.
Sway said:
TheDeuce said:
I think you're missing the point. Most hot hatch drivers don't generally do long trips - if they did, they'd have a car focused on comfort and mile munching.
Hot hatch is for a bloke that needs a practical car but wants sports car fun. Show me any hot hatch and I'll be able to tell you that it could be a more sensible car, including range/economy, in several ways.
But there are reasons people are moving to EV and some if those people will want a hot hatch!
They'll especially want one with over 400hp and very high spec for mid spec golf GTi money.
As for how much of a hot hatch it is beyond the 0-60 sprint.. as I said, let's wait for the first road tests. I think it's a good sign however that they have uprated the brakes and revised the suspension.
Agreed. 180 mile real world range would comfortably manage my 3x a week commute and a bit of local driving. Weekly free charge at work, happy days.Hot hatch is for a bloke that needs a practical car but wants sports car fun. Show me any hot hatch and I'll be able to tell you that it could be a more sensible car, including range/economy, in several ways.
But there are reasons people are moving to EV and some if those people will want a hot hatch!
They'll especially want one with over 400hp and very high spec for mid spec golf GTi money.
As for how much of a hot hatch it is beyond the 0-60 sprint.. as I said, let's wait for the first road tests. I think it's a good sign however that they have uprated the brakes and revised the suspension.
If it's fun to drive on that commute, then it's comfortably worth the cash.
However, there's the ever present knowledge that the reason why it's able to be such value is because the Chinese government is subsidising it to steal market share and bury the existing players. I'm not huge fans of most of the existing players, but I'm even less a fan of the Chinese government.
t were used to buying!But that's a political debate and it's pretty complex. This is PH and we're car fans so, whilst I have a lot of thoughts about things beyond cars, on threads such as this I just want to discuss the merits of the car in question.
£35k. 430hp. Very well equipped.
It's going to have to handle like an absolute turd for that to not make sense to enough people to buy them as fast as they can make them. The base car is already very well reviewed and drives perfectly competently for an average car so I think it's unlikely it will be a terrible drivers hit hatch.
TheDeuce said:
There's always another conversation to be had about why stuff is made cheaper in China... and in a nutshell we want high human rights here, but we also want to buy things at a great price so.. guess which country ends up making the st were used to buying!
But that's a political debate and it's pretty complex. This is PH and we're car fans so, whilst I have a lot of thoughts about things beyond cars, on threads such as this I just want to discuss the merits of the car in question.
£35k. 430hp. Very well equipped.
It's going to have to handle like an absolute turd for that to not make sense to enough people to buy them as fast as they can make them. The base car is already very well reviewed and drives perfectly competently for an average car so I think it's unlikely it will be a terrible drivers hit hatch.
There's a huge difference between western companies out sourcing manufacture to China (there's a big focus on as ethical labour as possible, but still taking advantage of the much lower costs), and a directly owned by the Chinese government business.t were used to buying!But that's a political debate and it's pretty complex. This is PH and we're car fans so, whilst I have a lot of thoughts about things beyond cars, on threads such as this I just want to discuss the merits of the car in question.
£35k. 430hp. Very well equipped.
It's going to have to handle like an absolute turd for that to not make sense to enough people to buy them as fast as they can make them. The base car is already very well reviewed and drives perfectly competently for an average car so I think it's unlikely it will be a terrible drivers hit hatch.
That business, doesn't need to worry about profit. They can swallow a decent loss on every single car without issue (and without any Western ethics policy oversight) in order to smash the competition.
The comparison is chalk and cheese.
https://www.mg.co.uk/new-cars/mg4-ev-xpower
Some impressive 4wd system there?
Maybe the cut 'n' paste the wrong drawing?
Some impressive 4wd system there?
MG Site said:
Smart All-Wheel Drive
MG4 EV XPOWER features a brand-new all-wheel drive system delivering improved traction, stability and enhanced safety with active braking on the inside wheels.
MG4 EV XPOWER features a brand-new all-wheel drive system delivering improved traction, stability and enhanced safety with active braking on the inside wheels.
Maybe the cut 'n' paste the wrong drawing?
Sway said:
TheDeuce said:
There's always another conversation to be had about why stuff is made cheaper in China... and in a nutshell we want high human rights here, but we also want to buy things at a great price so.. guess which country ends up making the st were used to buying!
But that's a political debate and it's pretty complex. This is PH and we're car fans so, whilst I have a lot of thoughts about things beyond cars, on threads such as this I just want to discuss the merits of the car in question.
£35k. 430hp. Very well equipped.
It's going to have to handle like an absolute turd for that to not make sense to enough people to buy them as fast as they can make them. The base car is already very well reviewed and drives perfectly competently for an average car so I think it's unlikely it will be a terrible drivers hit hatch.
There's a huge difference between western companies out sourcing manufacture to China (there's a big focus on as ethical labour as possible, but still taking advantage of the much lower costs), and a directly owned by the Chinese government business.t were used to buying!But that's a political debate and it's pretty complex. This is PH and we're car fans so, whilst I have a lot of thoughts about things beyond cars, on threads such as this I just want to discuss the merits of the car in question.
£35k. 430hp. Very well equipped.
It's going to have to handle like an absolute turd for that to not make sense to enough people to buy them as fast as they can make them. The base car is already very well reviewed and drives perfectly competently for an average car so I think it's unlikely it will be a terrible drivers hit hatch.
That business, doesn't need to worry about profit. They can swallow a decent loss on every single car without issue (and without any Western ethics policy oversight) in order to smash the competition.
The comparison is chalk and cheese.
Trying to draw a line of acceptable in the sand is pointless. Claiming a calm conscience because your car is 80% free of mistreated labour input as opposed to only 40% free of it?? I guess less is better but in terms of principles... You might as well be a vegetarian that only eats meat 3 days a week but still spends 7 days a week telling others that they're evil animal killers.
We can only afford our high standards of human rights and quality of life in the west, by buying most of what we need from the far East. It's up to them if they want that business and up to them how they conduct themselves to achieve the most competitive prices. But don't be blind to it or pretend that it's only a problem if a Chinese built car is built by a fully state owned entity.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Tbh I don't believe there are actual losses. Just the reality of fully state controlled cheap labour.The Chinese can make just about anything, including a beautifully finished and well specced EV for a fraction of what we can. They're in that position because the west used them as factory nation for decades.
Before having a debate about what's right and wrong you have to first accept the root cause of why it's happening. It's happening because western folk won't work the hours or the conditions to make a globally competitive product such as a modern car. But we still want that car, so one way or another we get it by inflating the output and growth of manufacturing in China.
The details of each car brands dealings with China are moot when it comes to morality. All of them are dealing with a situation western expectation and privilege created.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I've had a lot of direct experience. There are plenty of globally successful car manufacturing plants in the West, including in the UK.
I've also overseen contract manufacturing in both China and India. Done well, then the people working there afford a very nice lifestyle working in good conditions. There are a lot of 'done well' factories driven by Western corporate ethics. Not just in China, but Turkey/Indonesia/Brazil/etc.
What MG are doing is far removed from that. If it were that easy to make the product in China and sell for a profit globally - all the existing players would be doing it. They're not, because you can't.
Labour is a small percentage of the costs of making a car, especially an electric one.
The only reason the MGs are so cheap is because the Chinese government is sponsoring loss leaders.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Cheapest Leaf is a 39kWh battery, for £28.5k.Cheapest MG4 is £27k for a 51kWh battery and better spec.
BYD are in a similar position to MG. With longer history and added forced labour.
The Chinese state isn't aiming for one manufacturer to be dominant. It's aiming for Chinese State owned companies to be dominant.
LivLL said:
239 mile WLTP range, which from experience of the Trophy means real range of 180 in anything other than ideal conditions and that’s from 100 to crawling empty, It’s just not good enough for a car that’s going to sell fo £36k unfortunately,
PHs is a very odd place at times.....0-60 in under 4 seconds for a car costing £36K and people are complaining???For what its worth our small battery Tesla Model X does around 200 miles per charge in real life, takes 4.9 seconds to get to 60mph, and cost £71K. We've had it now for 6.5 years, done 75K miles in total, and taken it as far as the Atlantic Road in Norway.
The 'hot' version of the MG4, is quicker, has as much range, costs half the price, and I suspect far better built, amazing value for money.
It is an odd place indeed comparing a Model X with an MG4 is weird.
Tesla have had variable build quality but I’d be hard pressed to say MG make better cars.
£36k is a lot of money for a budget EV and we all know it’s very easy to put stupid amounts of bhp in an EV with relatively little cost or effort.
I wasn’t complaining as such, just can’t see the point.
If you want to trade in your X though and get one be my guest. I suspect you’d be disappointed with many aspects of the car.
Tesla have had variable build quality but I’d be hard pressed to say MG make better cars.
£36k is a lot of money for a budget EV and we all know it’s very easy to put stupid amounts of bhp in an EV with relatively little cost or effort.
I wasn’t complaining as such, just can’t see the point.
If you want to trade in your X though and get one be my guest. I suspect you’d be disappointed with many aspects of the car.
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