Taycan starting to look like a bargain
Discussion
JonnyVTEC said:
andyalan10 said:
Just for accuracy, the numbers were c600/month for the diesel, and c1050/month for a PHEV. On a lease, so no variability in residual value.
Just for accuracy the numbers were also comparing a Range Rover Sport with a FF Range Rover.And for other people, FFS he is quoting a different interest rate because that's what JLR are quoting to him.
Going even further off topic, as a private buyer looking at second hand medium large estates, I might well go down the PHEV route, it's just about only way to get a fully loaded Peugeot 508 SW with more than 130bhp. But never in my life have I been so unsure about whether to change cars, and if so to what.
wc98 said:
Given this is a forum for car enthusiasts with many members with high end car collections i think there may be some irony in your post as well 
The battery degradation issue was interesting given the numbers provided by someone that appears to have spent more time digging into the reality than the manufacturers. Tesla comes out really well although the takeaway for me is the posters on here banging on about it hardly taking any time to top up on long journeys, you know the ones that go to the toilet and buy a coffee then browse the premises at every service station they visit (unlike many others that just jump out for a pee in a bush when in the middle of nowhere) while fast charging are the ones ruining the batteries for subsequent buyers.
I'm not sure you understood what I was saying, or what "irony" means The battery degradation issue was interesting given the numbers provided by someone that appears to have spent more time digging into the reality than the manufacturers. Tesla comes out really well although the takeaway for me is the posters on here banging on about it hardly taking any time to top up on long journeys, you know the ones that go to the toilet and buy a coffee then browse the premises at every service station they visit (unlike many others that just jump out for a pee in a bush when in the middle of nowhere) while fast charging are the ones ruining the batteries for subsequent buyers.
"Nobody needs a 600bhp SUV". Agreed. But nobody needs a 400bhp sportscar you can't see out of, or a Project 7 (or whatever it is)....but we digress.His battery degradation whine was rooted in his prior PHEV Range Rover (!) dropping from 44 miles to 22 miles range in 2yrs or so. And that JLR, or his dealer, wouldn't check the SoH. Assuming he was checking things properly himself, that suggests a fault or crap product. Making it double ironic that he then buys another JLR product - self-flagellation at its finest!
He then goes on to start reading off from a chap on the internet "testing" with comments like "a lot of DC charging"
The biggest issue is that nobody really knows how long these battery packs will last or how long they'll give good performance for. I guess Porsche knew they made their cylinder liners from chocolate when they developed the 997.1 engine....but we digress again
The genuine EVs offer 100k miles plus of warranty (over 7yrs+) on the packs. And over that time they stipulate the SoH values that are to be held.
Tesla's data (allegedly - I can't be arsed digging it out) seems to suggest they will last better than that. I think they may have done it over quite a few more cars and with more empirical data than the Norwegian internet chap. But could be wrong.
The hysteria over EVs largely lacks any sort of logic, including Harry's. The arguments mostly apply to ICE vehicles just as much, and where they don't, there are pros and cons both ways.
Nomme de Plum said:
silentbrown said:
Of course they're different. The whole point of the comparison is that the diesel is available at about half the APR and with a £5K finance contribution (because they're really struggling to shift them
Did you miss the interest rate difference. silentbrown said:
Nomme de Plum said:
silentbrown said:
Of course they're different. The whole point of the comparison is that the diesel is available at about half the APR and with a £5K finance contribution (because they're really struggling to shift them
Did you miss the interest rate difference. As I said he'd be laughed out of the room.
Murph7355 said:
I'm not sure you understood what I was saying, or what "irony" means "Nobody needs a 600bhp SUV". Agreed. But nobody needs a 400bhp sportscar you can't see out of, or a Project 7 (or whatever it is)....but we digress.
His battery degradation whine was rooted in his prior PHEV Range Rover (!) dropping from 44 miles to 22 miles range in 2yrs or so. And that JLR, or his dealer, wouldn't check the SoH. Assuming he was checking things properly himself, that suggests a fault or crap product. Making it double ironic that he then buys another JLR product - self-flagellation at its finest!
He then goes on to start reading off from a chap on the internet "testing" with comments like "a lot of DC charging"
The biggest issue is that nobody really knows how long these battery packs will last or how long they'll give good performance for. I guess Porsche knew they made their cylinder liners from chocolate when they developed the 997.1 engine....but we digress again
The genuine EVs offer 100k miles plus of warranty (over 7yrs+) on the packs. And over that time they stipulate the SoH values that are to be held.
Tesla's data (allegedly - I can't be arsed digging it out) seems to suggest they will last better than that. I think they may have done it over quite a few more cars and with more empirical data than the Norwegian internet chap. But could be wrong.
The hysteria over EVs largely lacks any sort of logic, including Harry's. The arguments mostly apply to ICE vehicles just as much, and where they don't, there are pros and cons both ways.
I am more persuaded by Harry's plausible reasoning than your lack of it. "Nobody needs a 600bhp SUV". Agreed. But nobody needs a 400bhp sportscar you can't see out of, or a Project 7 (or whatever it is)....but we digress.His battery degradation whine was rooted in his prior PHEV Range Rover (!) dropping from 44 miles to 22 miles range in 2yrs or so. And that JLR, or his dealer, wouldn't check the SoH. Assuming he was checking things properly himself, that suggests a fault or crap product. Making it double ironic that he then buys another JLR product - self-flagellation at its finest!
He then goes on to start reading off from a chap on the internet "testing" with comments like "a lot of DC charging"
The biggest issue is that nobody really knows how long these battery packs will last or how long they'll give good performance for. I guess Porsche knew they made their cylinder liners from chocolate when they developed the 997.1 engine....but we digress again
The genuine EVs offer 100k miles plus of warranty (over 7yrs+) on the packs. And over that time they stipulate the SoH values that are to be held.
Tesla's data (allegedly - I can't be arsed digging it out) seems to suggest they will last better than that. I think they may have done it over quite a few more cars and with more empirical data than the Norwegian internet chap. But could be wrong.
The hysteria over EVs largely lacks any sort of logic, including Harry's. The arguments mostly apply to ICE vehicles just as much, and where they don't, there are pros and cons both ways.
Presumably if Taycans offered for sale between £50k and £70k were "bargain of the week" there wouldn't be quite so many of them for sale.
You need some serious cojones to throw that sort of money at a used car with the prospect of further rapid depreciation. As Harry explains, the factors that made them attractive as a new company car don't translate into a used car bargain for the private punter.
My personal guess is that a used £50k Taycan will depreciate at least as quickly as a brand new £50k car with factory warranty.
£50k for a used Taycan? Even a used Boxster/Cayman looks a seriously competitive buy at that price point.
You need some serious cojones to throw that sort of money at a used car with the prospect of further rapid depreciation. As Harry explains, the factors that made them attractive as a new company car don't translate into a used car bargain for the private punter.
My personal guess is that a used £50k Taycan will depreciate at least as quickly as a brand new £50k car with factory warranty.
£50k for a used Taycan? Even a used Boxster/Cayman looks a seriously competitive buy at that price point.
Except that the car market is way too fluid to draw any firm conclusions.
12 months ago used prices were ridiculously high. Today they're ridiculously low. You'd need a crystal ball to know exactly how the next 12 months are going to play out.
A lot of people aren't bothered about depreciation. If they were, Alfa would've gone down the pan in the UK years ago.
If I had £60k I'd buy a used Taycan as a company car. It'd be perfect, if a bit too bling for me.
12 months ago used prices were ridiculously high. Today they're ridiculously low. You'd need a crystal ball to know exactly how the next 12 months are going to play out.
A lot of people aren't bothered about depreciation. If they were, Alfa would've gone down the pan in the UK years ago.
If I had £60k I'd buy a used Taycan as a company car. It'd be perfect, if a bit too bling for me.
Panamax said:
Presumably if Taycans offered for sale between £50k and £70k were "bargain of the week" there wouldn't be quite so many of them for sale.
You need some serious cojones to throw that sort of money at a used car with the prospect of further rapid depreciation. As Harry explains, the factors that made them attractive as a new company car don't translate into a used car bargain for the private punter.
My personal guess is that a used £50k Taycan will depreciate at least as quickly as a brand new £50k car with factory warranty.
£50k for a used Taycan? Even a used Boxster/Cayman looks a seriously competitive buy at that price point.
I did wonder that, it could just keep dropping. Is there a real reason why these might become an unwanted vehicle and be a £10k white elephant?You need some serious cojones to throw that sort of money at a used car with the prospect of further rapid depreciation. As Harry explains, the factors that made them attractive as a new company car don't translate into a used car bargain for the private punter.
My personal guess is that a used £50k Taycan will depreciate at least as quickly as a brand new £50k car with factory warranty.
£50k for a used Taycan? Even a used Boxster/Cayman looks a seriously competitive buy at that price point.
I suspect that people bought the 140k car expecting it to be like a £140k Ferrari but after you have done a few fast runs you wonder what your £1600 per month commitment is really for and with the cost of living scaring them whilst their big mortgages doubled in cost they may have caught the willies?
Do teslas at 60k or whatever they cost depreciate at the same %?
I understand that the Taycans had a problem with a heater and they didn’t have parts to re-supply as they were built in Ukraine but I can’t see why else the Taycan would drop like a stone more than any other EV?
Caddyshack said:
Panamax said:
Presumably if Taycans offered for sale between £50k and £70k were "bargain of the week" there wouldn't be quite so many of them for sale.
You need some serious cojones to throw that sort of money at a used car with the prospect of further rapid depreciation. As Harry explains, the factors that made them attractive as a new company car don't translate into a used car bargain for the private punter.
My personal guess is that a used £50k Taycan will depreciate at least as quickly as a brand new £50k car with factory warranty.
£50k for a used Taycan? Even a used Boxster/Cayman looks a seriously competitive buy at that price point.
I did wonder that, it could just keep dropping. Is there a real reason why these might become an unwanted vehicle and be a £10k white elephant?You need some serious cojones to throw that sort of money at a used car with the prospect of further rapid depreciation. As Harry explains, the factors that made them attractive as a new company car don't translate into a used car bargain for the private punter.
My personal guess is that a used £50k Taycan will depreciate at least as quickly as a brand new £50k car with factory warranty.
£50k for a used Taycan? Even a used Boxster/Cayman looks a seriously competitive buy at that price point.
I suspect that people bought the 140k car expecting it to be like a £140k Ferrari but after you have done a few fast runs you wonder what your £1600 per month commitment is really for and with the cost of living scaring them whilst their big mortgages doubled in cost they may have caught the willies?
Do teslas at 60k or whatever they cost depreciate at the same %?
I understand that the Taycans had a problem with a heater and they didn’t have parts to re-supply as they were built in Ukraine but I can’t see why else the Taycan would drop like a stone more than any other EV?
I don’t think the future is great for them tbh. That said, when they are fully functional they are a cracking car, I loved my first one, hated my second one.
Watched it - as others have noted it is a ramble from an irrelevant old man who inherently does not like EVs. The cherry picking of dubious data from sources that support his inbuilt prejudice comes through clearly even though he waffles on. He knows his audience though and as we can see from some of the posts here, the anti EV crowd like what he says.
Mahalo said:
Watched it - as others have noted it is a ramble from an irrelevant old man who inherently does not like EVs. The cherry picking of dubious data from sources that support his inbuilt prejudice comes through clearly even though he waffles on. He knows his audience though and as we can see from some of the posts here, the anti EV crowd like what he says.
You didn't watch it though, did you?He's had countless EVs and other cars, he has tried them all. He picked real world examples as well as his own experiences and has a massive following on YT making him a long way from irrelevant in the media space. His age is the only irrelevant thing (although not to you it seems),
Your post puts you on the polar opposite end of this discussion, you sound like an EV evangelist who can't see their inherent and globally recognised downsides. There are pros to EVs but also many cons to them as well.
Frimley111R said:
You didn't watch it though, did you?
He's had countless EVs and other cars, he has tried them all. He picked real world examples as well as his own experiences and has a massive following on YT making him a long way from irrelevant in the media space. His age is the only irrelevant thing (although not to you it seems),
Your post puts you on the polar opposite end of this discussion, you sound like an EV evangelist who can't see their inherent and globally recognised downsides. There are pros to EVs but also many cons to them as well.
Although he seems to have put himself in the polar opposite by buying a diesel when sales are going down and EV sales are going up. Totally fine as it suits his usage case as does EV for others.He's had countless EVs and other cars, he has tried them all. He picked real world examples as well as his own experiences and has a massive following on YT making him a long way from irrelevant in the media space. His age is the only irrelevant thing (although not to you it seems),
Your post puts you on the polar opposite end of this discussion, you sound like an EV evangelist who can't see their inherent and globally recognised downsides. There are pros to EVs but also many cons to them as well.
He rightly has a following for his ICE content. Personally I find his EV coverage at the other end of the spectrum.
I think we're all aware of the pros/cons of EV and don't see many on here that would say different. It's not perfect, as you'd expect from relatively new tech and will take time to develop. ICE is not perfect either so you just pick the compromise that suits you best. For now.
His EV content is just opinion piece but his followers would seem to hang on it. I personally find it a bit meh so don't have much time for it.
From looking at a few threads about the Taycan and ignoring the usual repetitive for/against EVs, I would summarise them as being about depreciation, range, and heater failures. I’m not sure this is what Porsche intended with soul electrified.
Another (very) casual observation is that used values are bottoming out so it seems to have found a level. At least looking at retail pricing. It could be that EVs take a rapid 50% hit and then follow a gentler curve. I’m sure it can be proven with some data but just casually looking at ads it sort of seems to be true.
Another (very) casual observation is that used values are bottoming out so it seems to have found a level. At least looking at retail pricing. It could be that EVs take a rapid 50% hit and then follow a gentler curve. I’m sure it can be proven with some data but just casually looking at ads it sort of seems to be true.
Louis Balfour said:
andy43 said:
Harry Metcalfe has just done an interesting video on EVs and the reasons why noones buying.
730 Taycans on autotrader this morning. Just checked again - 742 now. ETA of those 54 are brand new 23/24 cars.
'arry says:730 Taycans on autotrader this morning. Just checked again - 742 now. ETA of those 54 are brand new 23/24 cars.
Edited by andy43 on Thursday 8th February 19:54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw
Take a look at BMW i8 prices - 100 cars for sale from £30,000. They originally sold for well over £100k.
Plenty of depreciation still in the pipeline for Taycan. I may be wrong but I suspect used prices will struggle to stay above Boxster/Cayman which were significantly cheaper cars from new.
Plenty of depreciation still in the pipeline for Taycan. I may be wrong but I suspect used prices will struggle to stay above Boxster/Cayman which were significantly cheaper cars from new.
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