New Lithium batteries with 3 times the storage
Discussion
Marylebone Rd in London is one of the most polluted roads in Europe. London keep getting fined by the EU. This is all unnecessary as EVs cars, buses, taxis, etc, can implemented very quickly. London boroughs are rolling out electric parking points. Parking meters can double up as chargers, as Denmark have done, using the same electricity cables. All simple to do.
RayTay said:
The reports are 3 times the energy storage, longevity, lighter, etc. All from reliable sources and institutions with progressive track records. That is something to fire optimism, not just for vehicles. Yet I read far too much negativeness. In real life I shy away from
negative people. They hold the world back.
As 2cv says, you need to be realistic. There have been hundreds of alleged "game changing" battery developments and few, if any, actually yield results in practice.negative people. They hold the world back.
That said I really hope it does, mining lithium for batteries is filthy and not sustainable.
Heres Johnny said:
TooMany2cvs said:
RayTay said:
LuS1fer said:
Yes but it won't be lower, if and when everyone is charging their cars, that will then become "peak" and prices will rise.
But you have not taken away the substantial electricity that is used to produce petro fuels. And I gave you 4 links...
And each link had more links...
Can you prove that you exist as I don't believe it.
Looking at it now, you'll forgive me for instantly taking an article on "greentransport.info" that starts with "According to a popular factoid..." with a pinch of salt to start with.
But no matter. Let's read on.
"Because EV's drive about as far on 6 kWh as gas cars drive on a gallon of gasoline..."
Hmm. 85kwh Tesla Model S has an NEDC range of 310 miles. That's 3.64 miles per kWh. 6kWh is 21.9 miles. Now, even allowing for US gallons versus imperial, that's suggesting the official economy for an internal combustion equivalent to a Model S is 26mpg. What d'you reckon, E-class Merc? Official combined figure for even the thirstiest in the range, the E63 AMG - yep, a f
k-off-great-big-thirsty-v8-twin-turbo-petrol - is a whole 20% better than that, 31mpg. Take an E350d, and you're looking at roughly double that article's suggested economy, 51mpg official combined.You'll excuse me for not bothering beyond that point.
RayTay said:
The reports are 3 times the energy storage, longevity, lighter, etc. All from reliable sources and institutions with progressive track records. That is something to fire optimism, not just for vehicles. Yet I read far too much negativeness. In real life I shy away from
negative people. They hold the world back.
Don't take my word on it - Goodenough himself responded to the same criticisms and queries as part of the slashdot article that was run:negative people. They hold the world back.
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/17/04/19/01621...
He also acknowledges that they still haven't sold the cathode problem (the problem I spoke about, and which limits capacity); a direct quote:
JBG: Energy density needs to be coupled to the charge/discharge cycle life; with the organic-liquid electrolytes now in use, batteries of high volumetric and/or specific energy density undergo a poor cycle life. The ability to plate a metallic-lithium anode dendrite-free from a solid electrolyte that is not reduced on contact with metallic lithium solves the safety problem, allows a long cycle life, and maximizes the energy density for a given cathode. However, the cathode strategies to optimize the density of stored energy in a full cell are yet to be determined for three different types of cathodes.
Then further down:
Battery structure and capacity
by gantry
How thick is the initial anode foil of Li or Na? This determines the capacity of the battery. All quantities in the paper are expressed per gram of lithium. The cathode has particles of glass electrolyte, carbon, and sulphur, with a copper collector. When the lithium is plated onto the cathode, upon which of these components is it plated, and how thick is the plating?
JBG:You are correct to imply that plating on the cathode from the anode can only give a voltage for a finite thickness of the plated material on the cathode side. We have not yet obtained a good measure of the thickness of the cathode plating that is viable, but it appears to be micro not nanometers thick. Optimizing the capacity will involve the ability to optimize the surface area of the cathode material. This optimization has yet to be performed, but we can plate sodium as well as lithium.
Cathode problem?
by bayduv1n
In the IEEE article, it was stated that the cathode problem has not yet been solved. Can you elaborate on this? Were the lab experiments conducted without a cathode?
JBG:We have demonstrated two approaches to the cathode of a rechargeable battery: plating of the alkali-metal anode onto a cathode current collector of lower chemical potential to a limited thickness over a large surface area and a conventional high-voltage insertion compound with a plasticizer contacting the cathode. Both work.
These problems are non-trivial, and whilst we could have a quicker charging/safer cell on the market in 3 years, the capacity increases will not come until these fundamental issues are solved.
Edited by MrJingles705 on Sunday 2nd July 22:01
MrJingles705 said:
Don't take my word on it - Goodenough himself responded to the same criticisms and queries as part of the slashdot article that was run.
there is also the plastic electrolyte I gave a link to. If you can't see that battery technology has advanced amazingly in 20 years and is still advancing and the grid can cope you need to run back to your safe space. mybrainhurts said:
I drive up to 80,000 miles a year, regularly with round trips of between 300 and 500 miles, followed by one or two 90 mile round trips in a day and I don't have time for 30 minute recharges.
So, until you can help me out, dodgem cars are utterly useless for me.
Assuming you are doing commercial miles, you could easily fit charging into your day as you would be taking those breaks anyway as part of EU (and likely to remain UK law).So, until you can help me out, dodgem cars are utterly useless for me.
gov.uk said:
a break or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes after no more than 4 hours 30 minutes driving
RayTay said:
taxi company in Cornwall did 100,000 miles in 2 years with a Nissan Leaf. They saved £17,000 in fuel and maintenance costs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIdUdhJxIt0&t=...
Again, as MBH, hardly representative usage.For the average 8/9k a year driver the cost of fuel is only part of the equation. As they come to replace their cars EVs will become more common.I suspect about 5% increase in EVs per year for the next decade or so.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIdUdhJxIt0&t=...
eldar said:
Again, as MBH, hardly representative usage.For the average 8/9k a year driver the cost of fuel is only part of the equation. As they come to replace their cars EVs will become more common.I suspect about 5% increase in EVs per year for the next decade or so.
Once the batteries hold x 2 the energy as now, there will be a deluge of EVs sold And once they have a decent, small, rotary power range-extender, hybrids will vastly increase in sales. In 10 years I cannot see a `vehicle` sold that is not an EV or a hybrid.Edited by RayTay on Monday 3rd July 08:32
People have been talking up alternative-metal batteries, like zinc and sodium, for the past ~30 years and none has beaten lithium for mass production. Battery power doubles every ~10 years, on average, and its scientific advances are glacial (for the tech world). This new hype about "tripling" battery storage will almost certainly fail to make commercial fruition.
RayTay said:
nce the batteries hold x 2 the energy as now, there will be a deluge of EVs sold And once they have a decent, small, rotary power range-extender, hybrids will vastly increase in sales. In 10 years I cannot see a `vehicle` sold this not an EV or a hybrid.
Indeed - the big question is when battery technology doubles. it may be like fusion or room temperature superconductivity or 3 weeks away. Getting it right will make someone very, very, rich. RayTay said:
there is also the plastic electrolyte I gave a link to. If you can't see that battery technology has advanced amazingly in 20 years and is still advancing and the grid can cope you need to run back to your safe space.
Three things I'd ask you to do, please, before continuing down this line:1) Stop treating me like the enemy - I like EV's, I run a hybrid XC90 as the family wagon precisely because 90% of the time I can run it on batteries but when we have to tow distance I have petrol to fall back on. I am not calling bunkus on all EV technology, I am not saying it hasn't advanced, I am not saying that this discovery is entirely worthless.... so all this "safe space" nonsense is just you picking a fight with a strawman of your own making
2) Actually dig into the technology he has laid out in the lab, the specifics of which I have directed you to, and try to get a fundamental understanding of the point I am making - the glass/plastic electrolyte makes no difference to the issue, in fact they have the exact same issue which is why they are seeking the exact same solutions. Then we can talk about why we (I'm bundling Goodenough in with me, since I quoted his words) are wrong on the capacity point as the technology stands right now. Read the actual paper.
RayTay said:
nce the batteries hold x 2 the energy as now, there will be a deluge of EVs sold And once they have a decent, small, rotary power range-extender, hybrids will vastly increase in sales. In 10 years I cannot see a `vehicle` sold this not an EV or a hybrid.
You might as well say "Once they get cold fusion working then our battery problems are over!". A shame that Dr. Goodenough doesn't appear to share your unbounded optimism that all the challenges will shortly be solved.Batteries are being used to store electricity on the national grid. These are massively cheaper than building pumped water storage power stations. which are also difficult as geography determines where they will be. The Germans are to use abandoned mines to use as the lower reservoir. Large batteries for stationary storage do not have mass or volume constraints. The Germans are building a 13 MWh grid battery bank made of used batteries from Daimler's electric drive Smart cars, expecting the second life of the batteries to last another 10 years.
https://www.ft.com/content/0f533cb6-bde6-11e6-8b45...
A floating wind/battery platform is to be built in the North Sea. A grid storage battery bank is being built at Barrow.
https://www.ft.com/content/b62b356e-2d10-11e6-bf8d...
The grid is gearing up for EVs for sure and the cast off batteries of EVs can be used in the grid to balance grid delivery.
The price of batteries dropped 50% in 6 years. All this comes from developments for cell phones, laptops and cars, which is still ongoing.
https://www.ft.com/content/0f533cb6-bde6-11e6-8b45...
A floating wind/battery platform is to be built in the North Sea. A grid storage battery bank is being built at Barrow.
https://www.ft.com/content/b62b356e-2d10-11e6-bf8d...
The grid is gearing up for EVs for sure and the cast off batteries of EVs can be used in the grid to balance grid delivery.
The price of batteries dropped 50% in 6 years. All this comes from developments for cell phones, laptops and cars, which is still ongoing.
Edited by RayTay on Monday 3rd July 09:47
RayTay said:
Batteries are being used to store electricity on the national grid. These are massively cheaper than building pumped water storage power stations. which are also difficult as geography determines where they will be. The Germans are to use abandoned mines to use as the lower reservoir. Large batteries for stationary storage do not have mass or volume constraints. The Germans are building a 13 MWh grid battery bank made of used batteries from Daimler's electric drive Smart cars, expecting the second life of the batteries to last another 10 years.
https://www.ft.com/content/0f533cb6-bde6-11e6-8b45...
A floating wind/battery platform is to be built in the North Sea.
https://www.ft.com/content/b62b356e-2d10-11e6-bf8d...
The grid is gearing up for EVs for sure and the cast off batteries of EVs can be used in the grid to balance grid delivery.
The price of batteries dropped 50% in 6 years. All this comes from developments for cell phones, laptops and cars.
This is all good news, but pretty irrelevant to the problems that need to be solved for EV batteries.https://www.ft.com/content/0f533cb6-bde6-11e6-8b45...
A floating wind/battery platform is to be built in the North Sea.
https://www.ft.com/content/b62b356e-2d10-11e6-bf8d...
The grid is gearing up for EVs for sure and the cast off batteries of EVs can be used in the grid to balance grid delivery.
The price of batteries dropped 50% in 6 years. All this comes from developments for cell phones, laptops and cars.
Dazed and Confused said:
Great news just around next corner.
Exactly this 
Mr2Mike said:
but pretty irrelevant to the problems that need to be solved for EV batteries.
The technical problems are pretty well solved - at least for x 2 storage. That was the point of this thread. Now it is a matter of getting the technology production ready. It will not be next year as the likes of Toyota test any new battery for a year or two before being accepted - and that is after the production is up and running.- The problems for EVs are of course the battery storage. (solved in cars on sale as 200 miles range is here, and improved further in the lab);
- Speed of charge (solved in the labs);
- The grid delivery.
Edited by RayTay on Monday 3rd July 09:49
RayTay said:
The lithium-ion battery has been given THREE times the storage by a 96 yr old man, Dr John Goodenough. THREE times the storage of the current Li-ion batteries, smaller, a 5 minute charge time, is non-flammable, lighter, with NO degradation after several thousand charging cycles. And, it's ready for production, and should be cheaper to produce. Smart phones will last 4 days not one day. If it goes to market in volume and the price drops as a result, this is `game changer`. Full EVs are then here and bye, bye polluting petro fuels. It is also the other applications that add much value overall. I can see them in battery trains to save on the excessive cost of overhead wires and planes. with a generator on board.
As a retrofit a battery set change will triple the range of a plug-in Prius. It will also capture more kinetic energy as well. The car is transformed by as simple battery change.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/03/17...
Don't think your link works, takes me to a page with loads of other stuff on it anyway.As a retrofit a battery set change will triple the range of a plug-in Prius. It will also capture more kinetic energy as well. The car is transformed by as simple battery change.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/03/17...
Edited by RayTay on Saturday 1st July 12:39
I don't know what 'revolution' technology this is. If at all. But as a general rule, increasing capacity comes with other downsides, usual cycle life and performance.
Anyone familiar with 18650 Li-ion batteries will know the biggest capacity ones, are not normally the best performing. This is because capacity is always linked to amp draw.
For example, I have 2500mAh batteries that will last longer than a 3100mAh battery under high amp draw... Because the 3100 simply does not perform well at high amps and capacity will plummet. The high capacity only works at low amp draws.
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