My First EV experience.....
Discussion
Evanivitch said:
ZesPak said:
Tbh if you look at who doesn't have a driveway, it's almost exclusively city folk.
So people who are already very limited in their car/personal transportation.
Eh? Have you ever left the big smoke?So people who are already very limited in their car/personal transportation.
I know of nearly no people outside of the city who don't have off street parking in some form or another. But of course, I don't live in the UK so the situation might differ there, but from looking at the numbers they suggest a similar situation.
Of course properties exist in rural areas without off-street parking but it's a much smaller minority than in urban/suburban areas.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
SWoll said:
For privately owned properties suburban also looks a lot better than many would have you believe (80% with garages or off street parking), and as above the vast majority of people without cars are going to live in urban areas anyway so off street parking a non issue for them.
There is the exactly problem you have highlighted with EVs, it may work well for us in private owned homes but what about single parents in social housing living in the city - Are you saying they shouldn't need a car, and just should 'manage' with public transport given how much more expensive EVs are to buy, and the difficulty in refueling one versus a £1000 combustion car?If the government is serious about mass EV adoption they have to find a way to address the social disparity in personal transportation EVs are going to create with the current situation.
Should people with no drive ways get 'free/discounted' rapid charging funded by a tax on people with EVs and charge their cars at home? Would you be happy to pay an additional tax on your domestic electricity bill to help everyone get into an EV?
gangzoom said:
There is the exactly problem you have highlighted with EVs, it may work well for us in private owned homes but what about single parents in social housing living in the city - Are you saying they shouldn't need a car, and just should 'manage' with public transport given how much more expensive EVs are to buy, and the difficulty in refueling one versus a £1000 combustion car?
EV's are more expensive to buy now... the gap is rapidly closing. The 1k pound car is nearly 20y old... years before any mainstream EV. So a non-argument or temporary one at best.gangzoom said:
Should people with no drive ways get 'free/discounted' rapid charging funded by a tax on people with EVs and charge their cars at home? Would you be happy to pay an additional tax on your domestic electricity bill to help everyone get into an EV?
Yes, of course.But what might be more likely is to see a healthy competition in charge points to the point the electricity delivered to their vehicle might not be that much more expensive. And in any case will be equal or less than what the equivalent in petrol was. The rates you're describing were fast charging rates, 11/22kW rates are often much lower than that, only about 20-30% more expensive than home rates.
What might happen though is that the prices of property with off street parking will become even more expensive, so as you said, will widen the gap.
SWoll said:
Evanivitch said:
ZesPak said:
Tbh if you look at who doesn't have a driveway, it's almost exclusively city folk.
So people who are already very limited in their car/personal transportation.
Eh? Have you ever left the big smoke?So people who are already very limited in their car/personal transportation.
Obviously they have an interest and very difficult to confirm the claim but if anywhere near accurate there are a huge number of UK drivers that could shift to EV and be able to charge pretty much exclusively at home to meet their range needs?
I certainly think that rapid charging weekly answers some of that issue, but yes it will be much more expensive than home charging.
Greg_D said:
Evanivitch said:
I certainly think that rapid charging weekly answers some of that issue, but yes it will be much more expensive than home charging.
and way cheaper than a tankful of fuel...ZesPak said:
Don't be too sure of that, the cost of rapid charging rivals that of more frugal cars.
Cost per mile for a middling 4miles/kWh ev would need to be 40p/kWh to match a 60mpg car. So the most expensive possible charging at a service station might be as bad as the most frugal car filled up at the local Tesco. Hardly a strong hand.Greg_D said:
Cost per mile for a middling 4miles/kWh ev would need to be 40p/kWh to match a 60mpg car. So the most expensive possible charging at a service station might be as bad as the most frugal car filled up at the local Tesco. Hardly a strong hand.
I agree, I'm just pointing out that -at this stage- it isn't "way cheaper".A lot of people have said that they expect the price of EV ownership to go up... to the point where it costs nearly the same to tax and drive as an ICE. Most of this is caused by the Government needing/wanting to recoup their lost fuel duty.
That makes sense.
As such, what we're seeing now is early adopters making the most of that situation to save a boat load of money. I suspect however that in due course, we won't be worrying about the less well off being able to charge as cheaply as the well off with their own parking quite so much, as we'll all be paying a shed load more.
Thus I'm not sure a "divide" will be an actual foregone conclusion.
That makes sense.
As such, what we're seeing now is early adopters making the most of that situation to save a boat load of money. I suspect however that in due course, we won't be worrying about the less well off being able to charge as cheaply as the well off with their own parking quite so much, as we'll all be paying a shed load more.
Thus I'm not sure a "divide" will be an actual foregone conclusion.
phil4 said:
Thus I'm not sure a "divide" will be an actual foregone conclusion.
Since it's nearly impossible to tax the electricity (I have a solar array that is up to the task easily), the tax will have to come in another way.The electricity and tax will have nothing to do with each other.
If it does, the divide will become even larger. As I'd just install a home battery and use my own electricity, paying no taxes for my 100k EV, while someone with an apartment will have to pay 60c/kWh to charge his Dacia Spring in the street.
ZesPak said:
Since it's nearly impossible to tax the electricity (I have a solar array that is up to the task easily), the tax will have to come in another way.
The electricity and tax will have nothing to do with each other.
I agree, my thinking is more that it will make the electricity cost/cost difference pretty much irrelevant, or at least a very much smaller piece of the pie. I suspect the monthly tax bill to be quite substantial in due course.The electricity and tax will have nothing to do with each other.
I think when we start to get to 50/50 ICE and EV on the roads, the govt will have to start turning the screw via more taxes on petrol and diesel to make up some of their losses. Ultimately road pricing is the only solution I think, but you wouldn’t be able to do that until almost everyone that can be is using an EV or the ICE users will be paying twice (taxes and road pricing).
It’s not an easy one to sort out really. The only weapon the govt has at its disposal to influence the type of car we buy is tax (or lack of it on EVs). When they get such massive amount of income from fuel duty they won’t be able to afford to lose even a part of it for long. But take away the tax advantages for EV users and there goes the incentive to have one for most people.
It’s not an easy one to sort out really. The only weapon the govt has at its disposal to influence the type of car we buy is tax (or lack of it on EVs). When they get such massive amount of income from fuel duty they won’t be able to afford to lose even a part of it for long. But take away the tax advantages for EV users and there goes the incentive to have one for most people.
Silverage said:
I think when we start to get to 50/50 ICE and EV on the roads, the govt will have to start turning the screw via more taxes on petrol and diesel to make up some of their losses. Ultimately road pricing is the only solution I think, but you wouldn’t be able to do that until almost everyone that can be is using an EV or the ICE users will be paying twice (taxes and road pricing).
The one thing you can take away from this is that ICE will pay one way or another.The fact that you think they wouldn't be able to do that, they already do. Duty taxes your "gas guzzler". You get extra road tax for cars that are more thirsty. Why is there a higher road tax on cars with more CO2? It doesn't make any sense, they should put high duty on fuel -> use fuel -> pollute.
Simple math, someone who has a 100g/km car and does 40k/ year pumps out twice as much as a 200g/km car that does 10k/year.
Yet the 200g car pays a lot more in taxes...
It's absurd to believe they won't tax them
Greg_D said:
ZesPak said:
Don't be too sure of that, the cost of rapid charging rivals that of more frugal cars.
Cost per mile for a middling 4miles/kWh ev would need to be 40p/kWh to match a 60mpg car. So the most expensive possible charging at a service station might be as bad as the most frugal car filled up at the local Tesco. Hardly a strong hand.Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff