Battery replacement cost, £15,000!!!

[budgie smuggler]

jinba-ittai said:

A mobile phone battery tends to get charged and discharged every day - the same is not true of an EV which will tend to get charged once a week

And not generally to 100% each time.

[JonnyVTEC]

gottans said:

I don't think any of the extra technologies applied to EV batteries change the underlying chemical characteristics of the lithium battery, they only delay the inevitable.

The water cooling system is pretty significant aswell as the narrower DoD ; State of Charge window. A phone battery is thrashed in that regard.

[kambites]

budgie smuggler said:

jinba-ittai said:

A mobile phone battery tends to get charged and discharged every day - the same is not true of an EV which will tend to get charged once a week

And not generally to 100% each time.

Never to 100%, I don't think? The "gross vs net" battery size isn't only to avoid complete discharges, the car wont let you use the very top end of the battery capacity either.

[kambites]

gottans said:

I don't think any of the extra technologies applied to EV batteries change the underlying chemical characteristics of the lithium battery, they only delay the inevitable.

Undoubtedly, but there's no reason they can't delay it past the typical useful life of a mainstream car. If the battery only lasts, say, 20 years at decent capacity (which I think is achievable given what we see with the cells we use at work) how much of an effect would that actually have on the automotive market? How many cars on the old style number plates do you still see on the road?

Looking at figures from modern EVs with active battery temperature management, something of the order of 1-2% of remaining capacity loss per year seems the norm, depending on the car in question and how it's used. So even if we take 2%, that means after 10 years you still have around 81% capacity, and after 20 you have 67%. So a car which starts out with a 300 mile range will have a roughly 200 mile range by its 20th birthday. That's still a very usable vehicle. If we take the 1% case (which is probably more likely in the UK's relatively mild climate) you're still around the 80% mark after 20 years, so our hypothetical 300 mile car will still have a 240 mile range.

Even if you take a figure as high as 3% PA, which seems entirely unrealistic from real world data, you still have more than half of your range left after 20 years.

Edited by kambites on Friday 28th January 11:25

[otolith]

gottans said:

I don't think any of the extra technologies applied to EV batteries change the underlying chemical characteristics of the lithium battery, they only delay the inevitable.

In the same sense that galvanising and painting steel doesn't change the underlying chemical characteristics of the metal, it just delays the inevitable.

[kurokawa]

dvs_dave said:

Toyota/Lexus builds cars for the used market, not the new one. Which is all well and good if you’re happy buying cars that are a generations behind the competition.

Toyota Corolla was very popular learner car in my country (because we have minimum size restriction on learner car)
the same engine and gear box have been use in 4 generation of Corolla, each year with a new body and price hike
I remember an idiom. a boat sailing against the current must forge ahead or it will be driven back

[gangzoom]

jinba-ittai said:

A mobile phone battery tends to get charged and discharged every day - the same is not true of an EV which will tend to get charged once a week

What's interesting about phone batteries is that there is now software implementations put in place to prolong the life of batteries. Not sure about Apple but Android now offers plenty of ways to limit the stress on the phone batteries from slower charge rate to limiting top end charge.

[jinba-ittai]

dvs_dave said:

No, they simply let other manufacturers introduce and develop the new tech until the kinks are worked out, and only then do they copy it and introduce that tech into their own vehicles.

Toyota/Lexus builds cars for the used market, not the new one. Which is all well and good if you’re happy buying cars that are a generation behind the competition.

I'd be very happy if all of the newest BMWs were availble with the 3.0 N52 engine and a manual gearbox from 3 generations ago

[anonymous-user]

dvs_dave said:

No, they simply let other manufacturers introduce and develop the new tech until the kinks are worked out, and only then do they copy it and introduce that tech into their own vehicles.

Toyota/Lexus builds cars for the used market, not the new one. Which is all well and good if you’re happy buying cars that are a generation behind the competition.

I think their relatively different focus comes down to who buys their cars and how. Toyota seem to target people who actually own their cars and are in it for the long run, not for people who lease and don't care if it can last more than 3 years. This helps the used buyer too, but that's not why they engineer and build the things to last.

If you were buying a car outright in cash for £35k and wanted 15 years of metronomic reliability from it you'd have to be a simpleton to get one from the Fatherland.

[Evanivitch]

gangzoom said:

What's interesting about phone batteries is that there is now software implementations put in place to prolong the life of batteries. Not sure about Apple but Android now offers plenty of ways to limit the stress on the phone batteries from slower charge rate to limiting top end charge.

[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51833196261_f3a8dfb79d_c_d.jpg[/thumb]

And that's come about because phone batteries are larger 1000s of mAh now), charging is more widely available (wireless, powerbanks, cafes) and power demands have been improved (OLED, processor management etc).

[CarCrazyDad]

dvs_dave said:

You’re comparing an extremely mature tech with practically unlimited used parts availability with new tech that doesn’t. Do you not think that situation that will change?

Yea but ”these fancy Electric cars”……grrrrrr!

That isn't what I said

And the point is that the cost to repair isn't going to change.

[Caddyshack]

otolith said:

Mr Spoon said:

Why would you go to a dealer for a new Merc engine????

Same reason you’d go to one for a new battery?

Not really. A good merc specialist could rebuild an engine for a fraction of the dealer price…not sure what you can do with a fubar battery?

On my e bike it had a factory 72v battery, it failed out of warranty and a replacement was over £2500. I had a bloke in Norway weld up some e cigarette / tesla cells for £700 and I got 84v and same Ish range. I think shipping is now an issue from abroad with cells so we need people in the U.K. to start salvaging busted Tesla’s and the like to harvest the cells and make new pack.

My Twizy battery is now nearly 10 yrs old and thankfully still has close to factory range but I am sure it will die off at some stage…not sure what to do then other than an expensive battery or motorbike engine? (Battery owned as Renault do not want to know about replacements)

[otolith]

Caddyshack said:

Not really. A good merc specialist could rebuild an engine for a fraction of the dealer price…not sure what you can do with a fubar battery?

Rather depends on what went wrong with each respectively. I suspect that in neither case is getting a brand new one installed by a main dealer the sensible option, but that's what the headline of the topic refers to.

[Caddyshack]

otolith said:

Caddyshack said:

Not really. A good merc specialist could rebuild an engine for a fraction of the dealer price…not sure what you can do with a fubar battery?

Rather depends on what went wrong with each respectively. I suspect that in neither case is getting a brand new one installed by a main dealer the sensible option, but that's what the headline of the topic refers to.

Yes, we all know that a main dealer would never get an outside company to investigate if a few cells could be replaced at a fraction of the cost unless the bill was landing on their doorstep.

I had a £4200 quote to fix my rangie, I declined and got pirtek to fix it for £140 on my driveway.

[kambites]

I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing refurbished battery packs sold on an exchange bases rather than companies repairing an individual customer's pack - you take your car to the repair place, they remove your battery and swap in a refurbished one, then they refurbish your old pack their leisure to fit to the next customer; or if it's beyond economical repair they remove the remaining good cells to use to fix other packs.

[NMNeil]

And the one thing that puts EV's above ICE engines, is simplicity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r37nqfnV9EU

[delta0]

I wonder if it’s possible to remove the battery and just use it as a non-hybrid.

[CoolHands]

kambites said:

I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing refurbished battery packs sold on an exchange bases rather than companies repairing an individual customer's pack - you take your car to the repair place, they remove your battery and swap in a refurbished one, then they refurbish your old pack their leisure to fit to the next customer; or if it's beyond economical repair they remove the remaining good cells to use to fix other packs.

You make it sound simple, but it’s probably going to take them a week. So will never be cheap. And you (they) can’t refurbish the cells, in reality they need to be changed / renewed.

[Buzz84]

Would like to know the whole story. Not just the selective details the media are reporting

Article said:

when he bought a second-hand Mercedes Benz hybrid car four years ago

Article said:

At the time of purchase, the car had done 49,000 miles

How many miles had it done at the time of failure? Read it through a couple of times now and can't see the important detail anywhere.

[anonymous-user]

Buzz84 said:

Would like to know the whole story. Not just the selective details the media are reporting

Article said:

when he bought a second-hand Mercedes Benz hybrid car four years ago

Article said:

At the time of purchase, the car had done 49,000 miles

How many miles had it done at the time of failure? Read it through a couple of times now and can't see the important detail anywhere.

It is a click bait article shouting doom and gloom while not providing anything useful.