Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
Suzuki/Yamaha 
So they take what would be wasted heat energy and use that to extract what is presumably a very small amount of additional hydrogen from the water.. doesn't sound transformational tbh. It doesn't even sound worth the complexity.
Hydrogen ICE on its own just seemingly cannot get to the point of being able to build powerful 4/5 seater road cars.So they take what would be wasted heat energy and use that to extract what is presumably a very small amount of additional hydrogen from the water.. doesn't sound transformational tbh. It doesn't even sound worth the complexity.
This might open up a few more avenues, I know too little about it tbh to have a view on viability yet.
Of course it doesn't change the source of the compressed hydrogen and will still fall foul of ZEV unless 'some' NOx is accommodated.
GT9 said:
TheDeuce said:
Suzuki/Yamaha
So they take what would be wasted heat energy and use that to extract what is presumably a very small amount of additional hydrogen from the water.. doesn't sound transformational tbh. It doesn't even sound worth the complexity.
Hydrogen ICE on its own just seemingly cannot get to the point of being able to build powerful 4/5 seater road cars.So they take what would be wasted heat energy and use that to extract what is presumably a very small amount of additional hydrogen from the water.. doesn't sound transformational tbh. It doesn't even sound worth the complexity.
This might open up a few more avenues, I know too little about it tbh to have a view on viability yet.
Of course it doesn't change the source of the compressed hydrogen and will still fall foul of ZEV unless 'some' NOx is accommodated.
I can see it being yet another novel enough idea to attract some grant $$$$$ and give certain politicians reason to argue for ICE deadlines in their car producing countries to be delayed or reconsidered.
All these hydrogen for personal transport ideas: Throwing s
t at a wall in the vein hope something might stick The fuel of the future's fall from grace continues, according to Bloomberg's latest Energy Outlook.
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/industrial/getting...
"Analyst expects no role for H2 in heating or cars in latest New Energy Outlook report".
Is it time yet to take the magic gas off the pedestal?
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/industrial/getting...
"Analyst expects no role for H2 in heating or cars in latest New Energy Outlook report".
Is it time yet to take the magic gas off the pedestal?
TheDeuce said:
GT9 said:
"Analyst expects no role for H2 in heating or cars in latest New Energy Outlook report".
Is it time yet to take the magic gas off the pedestal?
Please God no. With hydrogen out of the way the fruitloops will double down on their biofuel faith Is it time yet to take the magic gas off the pedestal?
when it was been realised that green hydrogen was too costly to produce in its own right, they 'discovered' naturally occurring hydrogen.... how convenient indeed.
too many fingers in pies with hydrogen, it was and still is a way to get funding and investment, and of course the oil industry is desperate as they can make hydrogen from natural gas. but that isnt a good move... again its energy intensive,
the realizations starting to happen and were seeing that hydrogen really isnt the solution. Hydrogen is going to go the way of the betamax.... it has a very limited use but other technologies out there that do it much much better.
too many fingers in pies with hydrogen, it was and still is a way to get funding and investment, and of course the oil industry is desperate as they can make hydrogen from natural gas. but that isnt a good move... again its energy intensive,
the realizations starting to happen and were seeing that hydrogen really isnt the solution. Hydrogen is going to go the way of the betamax.... it has a very limited use but other technologies out there that do it much much better.
ruggedscotty said:
when it was been realised that green hydrogen was too costly to produce in its own right, they 'discovered' naturally occurring hydrogen.... how convenient indeed.
too many fingers in pies with hydrogen, it was and still is a way to get funding and investment, and of course the oil industry is desperate as they can make hydrogen from natural gas. but that isnt a good move... again its energy intensive,
the realizations starting to happen and were seeing that hydrogen really isnt the solution. Hydrogen is going to go the way of the betamax.... it has a very limited use but other technologies out there that do it much much better.
The key is to remember that green hydrogen is the cure for grey hydrogen. And that's pretty much it. too many fingers in pies with hydrogen, it was and still is a way to get funding and investment, and of course the oil industry is desperate as they can make hydrogen from natural gas. but that isnt a good move... again its energy intensive,
the realizations starting to happen and were seeing that hydrogen really isnt the solution. Hydrogen is going to go the way of the betamax.... it has a very limited use but other technologies out there that do it much much better.
ruggedscotty said:
when it was been realised that green hydrogen was too costly to produce in its own right, they 'discovered' naturally occurring hydrogen.... how convenient indeed.
too many fingers in pies with hydrogen, it was and still is a way to get funding and investment, and of course the oil industry is desperate as they can make hydrogen from natural gas. but that isnt a good move... again its energy intensive,
the realizations starting to happen and were seeing that hydrogen really isnt the solution. Hydrogen is going to go the way of the betamax.... it has a very limited use but other technologies out there that do it much much better.
Virtually all hydrogen produced today - about 100m tons pa, iirc - is made from natural gas, as it has been for many decades. Given the cost and practicality challenges of alternative sources, that's unlikely to change anytime soon.too many fingers in pies with hydrogen, it was and still is a way to get funding and investment, and of course the oil industry is desperate as they can make hydrogen from natural gas. but that isnt a good move... again its energy intensive,
the realizations starting to happen and were seeing that hydrogen really isnt the solution. Hydrogen is going to go the way of the betamax.... it has a very limited use but other technologies out there that do it much much better.
It seam to me that with wind farms and solar production be most efficient when we don’t need some form of storage is far
More useful than more production. Why not simplest convert and store hydrogen. It would get us out of the natural gas hole we have today. Redces the pressure on producing more batteries too
More useful than more production. Why not simplest convert and store hydrogen. It would get us out of the natural gas hole we have today. Redces the pressure on producing more batteries too
ashenfie said:
It seam to me that with wind farms and solar production be most efficient when we don’t need some form of storage is far
More useful than more production. Why not simplest convert and store hydrogen. It would get us out of the natural gas hole we have today. Redces the pressure on producing more batteries too
Cost. It's that simple. Storage is too expensive to be viable. If you consider hydrogen, you lose 50% of the electricity converting it to hydrogen. You then lose another 50 converting it back and then the cost of storing it inbetween is huge. More useful than more production. Why not simplest convert and store hydrogen. It would get us out of the natural gas hole we have today. Redces the pressure on producing more batteries too
Hydrogen is a chemical that must be used as it is created.
It's why the HIF project is no longer aiming to transport hydrogen across the Atlantic but instead convert it at source to something stable that can be shipped and stored viably. Ultimately if there is a viable delivery of excess renewable from the Chilean project then the industries that use hydrogen will end up relocating to that source.
The U.K. has the additional advantage of having international partners easily reached by cable so just selling the excess renewable energy remains the viable solution. First to domestic users who have storage already such as EV owners and then by export for credits. When the U.K. has a need for energy that can't be met by falling back on local nat gas then it can import back via that international grid.
Further working against the storage economics are tech developments such as power station exhaust scrubbing. Nat gas is already one of the cleanest fossil fuels to combust and each year the CO2 emissions are reduced by improvements in scrubbing technology. When you reach the point that enough CO2 can be scrubbed and sequestered the problem of CO2 goes away.
The key to remember is that CO2 production isn't being banned it just needs to reach net zero by 2050.
What Green Hydrogen is needed for is firstly to replace grey hydrogen (not a U.K. problem in the first instance) and then secondly to decarbonise key fuels such as aviation fuel as aviation is unlikely to go electric any time soon. Both these true demands give GH a price that is way above any storage value let alone anyone being able to use it for cars etc. So if an energy generator in the U.K. were to convert excess renewables to GH it would never be for storage, a negative cost but to sell immediately to industry to help them avoid hefty carbon penalties from using grey hydrogen.
ruggedscotty said:
when it was been realised that green hydrogen was too costly to produce in its own right, they 'discovered' naturally occurring hydrogen.... how convenient indeed.
People seem to forget how exploration of reserves.works. you don't just go poking around looking for anything snd everything. And yes, sometimes what was a contaminant becomes a byproduct becomes a primary resource. White (naturally occuring) hydrogen is one of those things.
The problem is, even if massive quantities of natural hydrogen were prevalent, the extraction, compression, transportation and end point delivery to H2 vehicles, and then conversion to electricity in the vehicle... is still less efficient than just plain old electricity start to finish.
TheDeuce said:
The problem is, even if massive quantities of natural hydrogen were prevalent, the extraction, compression, transportation and end point delivery to H2 vehicles, and then conversion to electricity in the vehicle... is still less efficient than just plain old electricity start to finish.
And to add to this.. The reason most people seem to want Hydrogen to work for cars is because they see it as an alternative to electric cars, as if they can't see that the car is still electric, it just carries it's own power station as opposed to charging up from the grid.I'm not talking about members of this sub forum, who I would like to think are a bit more clued up by now.. But the 'man down the pub' attitude seems to be dismissive of EV's and wanting of hydrogen simply as an alternative - not based on any logic as such. I genuinely think a lot of folk got as far as learning that you fill the car up with hydrogen, and have since assumed it'll be an ICE equivalent and not a 'silly electric car'.
TheDeuce said:
And to add to this.. The reason most people seem to want Hydrogen to work for cars is because they see it as an alternative to electric cars, as if they can't see that the car is still electric, it just carries it's own power station as opposed to charging up from the grid.
I'm not talking about members of this sub forum, who I would like to think are a bit more clued up by now.. But the 'man down the pub' attitude seems to be dismissive of EV's and wanting of hydrogen simply as an alternative - not based on any logic as such. I genuinely think a lot of folk got as far as learning that you fill the car up with hydrogen, and have since assumed it'll be an ICE equivalent and not a 'silly electric car'.
i think a lot are thinking it would be hydrogen ICEI'm not talking about members of this sub forum, who I would like to think are a bit more clued up by now.. But the 'man down the pub' attitude seems to be dismissive of EV's and wanting of hydrogen simply as an alternative - not based on any logic as such. I genuinely think a lot of folk got as far as learning that you fill the car up with hydrogen, and have since assumed it'll be an ICE equivalent and not a 'silly electric car'.
TheDeuce said:
The problem is, even if massive quantities of natural hydrogen were prevalent, the extraction, compression, transportation and end point delivery to H2 vehicles, and then conversion to electricity in the vehicle... is still less efficient than just plain old electricity start to finish.
Are you running cars on scalextric?Evanivitch said:
TheDeuce said:
The problem is, even if massive quantities of natural hydrogen were prevalent, the extraction, compression, transportation and end point delivery to H2 vehicles, and then conversion to electricity in the vehicle... is still less efficient than just plain old electricity start to finish.
Are you running cars on scalextric?tamore said:
TheDeuce said:
And to add to this.. The reason most people seem to want Hydrogen to work for cars is because they see it as an alternative to electric cars, as if they can't see that the car is still electric, it just carries it's own power station as opposed to charging up from the grid.
I'm not talking about members of this sub forum, who I would like to think are a bit more clued up by now.. But the 'man down the pub' attitude seems to be dismissive of EV's and wanting of hydrogen simply as an alternative - not based on any logic as such. I genuinely think a lot of folk got as far as learning that you fill the car up with hydrogen, and have since assumed it'll be an ICE equivalent and not a 'silly electric car'.
i think a lot are thinking it would be hydrogen ICEI'm not talking about members of this sub forum, who I would like to think are a bit more clued up by now.. But the 'man down the pub' attitude seems to be dismissive of EV's and wanting of hydrogen simply as an alternative - not based on any logic as such. I genuinely think a lot of folk got as far as learning that you fill the car up with hydrogen, and have since assumed it'll be an ICE equivalent and not a 'silly electric car'.
They just don't want a silly electric car, so hydrogen must be better..
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