Seperate Meters for EV Chargers.
Discussion
mickyh7 said:
Smart Meters will be capable of sorting your
'High Tax Charging Electricity' from your Domestic use!
And of course, charging accordingly.
I'm not entirely sure how they could achieve that! There's only one output from the meter, it has no idea where the electricity being drawn is going. 'High Tax Charging Electricity' from your Domestic use!
And of course, charging accordingly.
kambites said:
mickyh7 said:
Smart Meters will be capable of sorting your
'High Tax Charging Electricity' from your Domestic use!
And of course, charging accordingly.
I'm not entirely sure how they could achieve that! There's only one output from the meter, it has no idea where the electricity being drawn is going. 'High Tax Charging Electricity' from your Domestic use!
And of course, charging accordingly.
Different rates and taxation for charging EVs fits the agenda and answers the lost tax revenue issue. Must be on the cards
bigothunter said:
You may not be entirely sure but the authorities will be
Different rates and taxation for charging EVs fits the agenda and answers the lost tax revenue issue. Must be on the cards
Quite possibly, but if they do it will be nothing to do with the meters, the data will come straight from the chargers themselves somehow. In which case many people will just switch to charging from a three-pin plug. Different rates and taxation for charging EVs fits the agenda and answers the lost tax revenue issue. Must be on the cards
charltjr said:
Ignoring the crackpot wibble website’s frankly bulls
t spin on it, this isn’t news.
It’s just load management to protect the grid from local overload in periods of high demand and low supply and has been in the pipeline for ages.
This.t spin on it, this isn’t news. It’s just load management to protect the grid from local overload in periods of high demand and low supply and has been in the pipeline for ages.
The quoted web site is basically wrong.
The actual legislation says nothing of the sort. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/1467/pdfs...
Will get revised in due course I am sure, but seems to steer in the direction of good engineering design.
kambites said:
Quite possibly, but if they do it will be nothing to do with the meters, the data will come straight from the chargers themselves somehow. In which case many people will just switch to charging from a three-pin plug.
They put Men on the Moon 60 years ago.You don't think they'll not know when you've plugged a car in to your domestic supply!
I'm sat at Leeds, monitoring a Actuator, on a Valve under an Oilrig, in the Sea of Mexico.
Five and a half thousand miles away.
This is old Technology.
kambites said:
Quite possibly, but if they do it will be nothing to do with the meters, the data will come straight from the chargers themselves somehow. In which case many people will just switch to charging from a three-pin plug.
Hence restricting 'Economic' charging rate to an impractical 3 kW maximum. Meter detects higher current charging (eg over 16 amps) and switches over to different rate and taxation accordingly. Or fast charging demands a control signal from the EV architecture.There are many ways to impose higher costs for EV charging.
bigothunter said:
Hence restricting 'Economic' charging rate to an impractical 3 kW maximum. Meter detects higher current charging (eg over 16 amps) and switches over to different rate and taxation accordingly. Or fast charging demands a control signal from the EV architecture.
There are many ways to impose higher costs for EV charging.
This, and other ways too.There are many ways to impose higher costs for EV charging.
bigothunter said:
Hence restricting 'Economic' charging rate to an impractical 3 kW maximum. Meter detects higher current charging (eg over 16 amps) and switches over to different rate and taxation accordingly. .....
So, does me having a shower in the evening attract this new rate of taxation?I suggest people read the actual legislation.
Of course, tax revenues have to be collectred, and transport is one source. A reduction of revenue from fossil fuels needs to be made up somewhere. It is just not what there regulations are about.
The regulations even specifically say that the EVSE will still function if there is no communication.
Part 2
Loss of communications network access
7. A relevant charge point must be configured so that, in the event that it ceases to be connected
to a communications network, it remains capable of charging an electric vehicle.
bigothunter said:
Hence restricting 'Economic' charging rate to an impractical 3 kW maximum. Meter detects higher current charging (eg over 16 amps) and switches over to different rate and taxation accordingly. Or fast charging demands a control signal from the EV architecture.
3kw is entirely practical for the vast majority of people the vast majority of the time. The average car travels about 20 miles a day so the average car needs about 8kwh per night. Even if you only charge at 1kw that's still achievable overnight. People with "normal" levels of usage can easily use a three-pin plug for 95% of their charging and only use their dedicated charger for the 5% of their driving which needs to be faster. They're not going to be able to recoup the revenue they lose in petrol tax by putting a higher tax on 5% of EV charging!
There are far, far easier ways to tax the use of EVs than trying to tax the "fuel".
Edited by kambites on Friday 7th January 08:57
I've seen this done years and years ago.
The company (AlertMe) who did this sold out to BG and became Hive.
In essence they monitored your usage and spotted particular patterns in it... for example a kettle is typically very quick ramp up, high use then drop. And EV charger again would be pretty straightforward as almost nothing would use 7KW for protracted periods. Most heaters would cycle on and off after initial heating, showers would be shorter use etc.
Basically dump some machine learning (I didn't say AI), and it'll be able to spot the patterns.
The company (AlertMe) who did this sold out to BG and became Hive.
In essence they monitored your usage and spotted particular patterns in it... for example a kettle is typically very quick ramp up, high use then drop. And EV charger again would be pretty straightforward as almost nothing would use 7KW for protracted periods. Most heaters would cycle on and off after initial heating, showers would be shorter use etc.
Basically dump some machine learning (I didn't say AI), and it'll be able to spot the patterns.
phil4 said:
I've seen this done years and years ago.
The company (AlertMe) who did this sold out to BG and became Hive.
In essence they monitored your usage and spotted particular patterns in it... for example a kettle is typically very quick ramp up, high use then drop. And EV charger again would be pretty straightforward as almost nothing would use 7KW for protracted periods. Most heaters would cycle on and off after initial heating, showers would be shorter use etc.
Basically dump some machine learning (I didn't say AI), and it'll be able to spot the patterns.
Storage heaters would have a very similar profile.The company (AlertMe) who did this sold out to BG and became Hive.
In essence they monitored your usage and spotted particular patterns in it... for example a kettle is typically very quick ramp up, high use then drop. And EV charger again would be pretty straightforward as almost nothing would use 7KW for protracted periods. Most heaters would cycle on and off after initial heating, showers would be shorter use etc.
Basically dump some machine learning (I didn't say AI), and it'll be able to spot the patterns.
This is nothing new and that website seems sketchy at best.
In mid 2019 all new chargers had to be 'Smart', i.e. they had to have a data connection, via wifi, GSM or ethernet. The original idea is that is times of high demand energy suppliers (not the govt) would turn your charger down and potentially pay you/provide a discount for the ability to do so. The idea is a good one.
But....
1. There were tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dumb (no data connections) chargers already installed in homes and workplaces before mid 2019.
2. Although the base software is the same, there is a multitude of different types of software across chargers and each supplier needs to be able to connect to each type. Good luck with that.
3. Let's say your charger is connected to WIFI. And it drops out, which it can do. What happens then?
4. Even from 2019 right up to today you can fit a dumb charger (although no OZEV grant if you do) and so the issue of dumb chargers is being compounded
5. Most consumers don't even use the App on their chargers and somehow an energy company would need to walk through all it's customers to connect them up to their software. Again, good luck doing that.
6. What if I was on emergency call outs or needed my car a lot because I was a taxi driver? Turning my charger down before the evening shift is the last thing such people want.
As you can see, there are a lot of challenges. FWIW I think simpler solutions are best and are working now: Energy companies offer cheap charging rates over night when everyone is in bed. Simple and easy!
Don' forget too that EVs mostly won't need charging any more than every 3-4 days either.
The taxation point is ridiculous and completely impractical from a charging viewpoint. Much easier just to charge £X00 a year in RFL do everyone with an EV.
In mid 2019 all new chargers had to be 'Smart', i.e. they had to have a data connection, via wifi, GSM or ethernet. The original idea is that is times of high demand energy suppliers (not the govt) would turn your charger down and potentially pay you/provide a discount for the ability to do so. The idea is a good one.
But....
1. There were tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dumb (no data connections) chargers already installed in homes and workplaces before mid 2019.
2. Although the base software is the same, there is a multitude of different types of software across chargers and each supplier needs to be able to connect to each type. Good luck with that.
3. Let's say your charger is connected to WIFI. And it drops out, which it can do. What happens then?
4. Even from 2019 right up to today you can fit a dumb charger (although no OZEV grant if you do) and so the issue of dumb chargers is being compounded
5. Most consumers don't even use the App on their chargers and somehow an energy company would need to walk through all it's customers to connect them up to their software. Again, good luck doing that.
6. What if I was on emergency call outs or needed my car a lot because I was a taxi driver? Turning my charger down before the evening shift is the last thing such people want.
As you can see, there are a lot of challenges. FWIW I think simpler solutions are best and are working now: Energy companies offer cheap charging rates over night when everyone is in bed. Simple and easy!
Don' forget too that EVs mostly won't need charging any more than every 3-4 days either.
The taxation point is ridiculous and completely impractical from a charging viewpoint. Much easier just to charge £X00 a year in RFL do everyone with an EV.
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