Rocketing electricity prices and EV Viability

[Dave Hedgehog]

I am about to come out of contract (14p/kwh) and go onto a substantially higher capped tariff ...

However I was also quoted a product reflecting the real cost of elec outside of the energy price cap of 42.47p/KWh ...

That would give a cost per 1000 miles of approx £123 which is about the same as an unleaded car avg 52mpg

Once the next price cap period is over we could be paying over 40p+ if the market has not stabilised, there may not be much incentive to pay a lot extra for an EV over an ICE car, If you cant get on a special overnight tariff

[NDA]

I guess it depends what you're coming from... in my specific case, I have a supercharged Vogue which costs £150 to fill up - so it's around 40p a mile. My Tesla currently costs roughly £11 to fill up from 0 - 100%. The Range Rover always costs around £1,000 to service (there's usually something expensive to fix), lots of road tax, but not much to insure. So the Tesla wins easily, even if the price of electrickery goes up.

But if you were coming from something more economic, then you're right - it would be finely balanced. It would be a no brainer for ICE if you couldn't charge at home in this case.

[SWoll]

Need to compare apples with apples otherwise a pointless exercise I'd suggest?

Currently run one of the least efficient EV's around, an etron 55. Petrol equivalent would be a Q7 55 TFSI.

We average 2.5 miles/kWh so at the price given above that's approx 17p per mile for 'fuel'.

Q7 55 TFSI averages 26mpg according to Audi, so at a cost of £1.46 litre that's around 26p per mile.

So like for like electricity would need to be almost twice the price given for it to be more expensive from a cost perspective?

In which case I'd still take the EV, as it's just a better drivetrain for 99% of scenarios.

Edited by SWoll on Monday 17th January 10:57

[gangzoom]

SWoll said:

So like for like electricity would need to be almost twice the price given for it to be comparible from a cost perspective?

Its about an incentive to change behavior, and anything close to price parity is not an incentive (unless you actually believes EVs are more 'green').

I jumped into the EV world because at the time the cost running an EV was around 1-2p/mile in fuel at a time when fuel costs were £1.40/L. Infact when I added in business miles claims I was literally been paid by the government to run an EV.

It becomes a very hard sell indeed if however running costs close to near parity AND you add in stuff like longer charging times etc. This is the issue currently with heat pumps, where is the incentive for me to spend loads effort/time ditch the gas boiler and get a heat pump when running costs are equal if not more??

EV refuel costs aren't at parity yet with ICE cars, but its getting there very quickly, and certainly much more quickly any one anticipated. Bare in mind the government hasn't even started to tax EVs properly.

[NDA]

gangzoom said:

EV refuel costs aren't at parity yet with ICE cars, but its getting there very quickly, and certainly much more quickly any one anticipated. Bare in mind the government hasn't even started to tax EVs properly.

Yep, all true.

I am rather hoping that because electricity also powers every voters home, that pricing will not reach astronomical levels.

I have already saved around £7k in fuel, servicing and road tax with the Tesla, and around £20k in corporation tax - who knows what the future holds, but I'll take those savings now.

[sjg]

I doubt I could get anywhere near 52mpg on petrol for our typical EV usage. Even if cost was similar, I prefer how they drive and I really like preheating in the winter.

Electricity costs are temporarily very high but should calm back down. Petrol is expensive and likely to remain so.

[Pica-Pica]

The same volatile and unpredictable electricity tariffs also affect calculations for domestic heat pumps. My spreadsheet for viability of an ASHP has pushed the payback period into centuries, rather than 14 to 17 years or so. Stability in electricity prices is much needed to make sensible long term investments.

[anonymous-user]

Dave Hedgehog said:

That would give a cost per 1000 miles of approx £123 which is about the same as an unleaded car avg 52mpg

Er, what we are going to find is that all energy prices climb markedly! Petrol and diesel are, imo, going to continue to climb, especially as taxation is used steer people to lower consuming options in the fact of every more obvious climate excursions etc

So whilst today a 52mpg car might cost you "just" £123 to do a 1000 miles, pretty soon that wont' be the case either......

[barian]

SWoll said:

Need to compare apples with apples otherwise a pointless exercise I'd suggest?

Currently run one of the least efficient EV's around, an etron 55. Petrol equivalent would be a Q7 55 TFSI.

We average 2.5 miles/kWh so at the price given above that's approx 17p per mile for 'fuel'.

Q7 55 TFSI averages 26mpg according to Audi, so at a cost of £1.46 litre that's around 26p per mile.

So like for like electricity would need to be almost twice the price given for it to be more expensive from a cost perspective?

In which case I'd still take the EV, as it's just a better drivetrain for 99% of scenarios.

Edited by SWoll on Monday 17th January 10:57

If electricity for EV's were taxed at the same rate as petrol (58p per litre duty plus VAT on base cost and duty) , your EV cost would be over 40p/mile. Not going to happen anytime soon no doubt, but in the longer term?

[barian]

SWoll said:

Need to compare apples with apples otherwise a pointless exercise I'd suggest?

Currently run one of the least efficient EV's around, an etron 55. Petrol equivalent would be a Q7 55 TFSI.

We average 2.5 miles/kWh so at the price given above that's approx 17p per mile for 'fuel'.

Q7 55 TFSI averages 26mpg according to Audi, so at a cost of £1.46 litre that's around 26p per mile.

So like for like electricity would need to be almost twice the price given for it to be more expensive from a cost perspective?

In which case I'd still take the EV, as it's just a better drivetrain for 99% of scenarios.

Edited by SWoll on Monday 17th January 10:57

If electricity for EV's were taxed at the same rate as petrol (58p per litre duty plus VAT on base cost and duty) , your EV cost would be over 40p/mile. Not going to happen anytime soon no doubt, but in the longer term?

[Dave Hedgehog]

barian said:

If electricity for EV's were taxed at the same rate as petrol (58p per litre duty plus VAT on base cost and duty) , your EV cost would be over 40p/mile. Not going to happen anytime soon no doubt, but in the longer term?

they wont tax electric, to easy to avoid unless they tax all of it which would hit low income families badly (they are going to be crucified anyway with the upcoming increases)

my monies on camera based road pricing, been working for 20 years in London

[barian]

Dave Hedgehog said:

barian said:

If electricity for EV's were taxed at the same rate as petrol (58p per litre duty plus VAT on base cost and duty) , your EV cost would be over 40p/mile. Not going to happen anytime soon no doubt, but in the longer term?

they wont tax electric, to easy to avoid unless they tax all of it which would hit low income families badly (they are going to be crucified anyway with the upcoming increases)

my monies on camera based road pricing, been working for 20 years in London

You are probably right, but if road pricing is introduced it will be difficult (not impossible, of course) to maintain the high taxation rate for petrol, so the basic point remains. And I think it would not be too difficult to have EV chargers report their electricity consumption separately.

[PushedDover]

barian said:

If electricity for EV's were taxed at the same rate as petrol (58p per litre duty plus VAT on base cost and duty) , your EV cost would be over 40p/mile. Not going to happen anytime soon no doubt, but in the longer term?

Solar panels on the roof. PowerWall.

That would be the answer

[Diderot]

For owners of Ltd companies EV company cars are still a complete no-brainer. Not sure what theoretical leccy prices would have to climb to to make them non-viable and advantageous.

[langy]

I'm contemplating moving from a diesel VW Tiguan (2.5 years old), 46 MPG average to a company car. Either Skoda Enyaq 80kwh battery, or a Q4 etron with the same size battery.

My current commute is 120 miles / day, 4 days / week.

I get circa £7k car allowance and fuel is paid at about 13p/mile. If I opted for an EV, I'd loose my car allowance and get taxed about £15/month, 'fuel' for an EV is claimable through the company at 4p/mile (i think).

With current fuel costs (electric £0.25 /kWh and Diesel at £1.49) i reckon I need to be doing at least 18k miles / year for it to be worth switching to an EV. If electric goes up to £0.45/kWh, the cost per mile (EV & diesel) will be about the same and it then doesn't make financial sense to swap.

Think i may wait a few more weeks to see what the new energy price cap is.

Decisions, decisions........

Edited by langy on Monday 17th January 22:38

[Murph7355]

barian said:

You are probably right, but if road pricing is introduced it will be difficult (not impossible, of course) to maintain the high taxation rate for petrol, s....

Why?

Govts love to double tax the bks out of anything they can. Why take one bite of the pie when you can have two?

[LordFlathead]

Paid 30p/kwh from Tesla. Just filled it to 100% for kicks and it cost £11.99 from Park Royal Supercharger. Showing 330 miles range. Realistic mileage will be 280 with a bit of hooning and listening to the audio flat out.

So on a 45mpg car we are talking £33?

Of course its peanuts from off peak at 5.5p kwh. (£3.80)

[TheDeuce]

gangzoom said:

SWoll said:

So like for like electricity would need to be almost twice the price given for it to be comparible from a cost perspective?

Its about an incentive to change behavior, and anything close to price parity is not an incentive (unless you actually believes EVs are more 'green').

I jumped into the EV world because at the time the cost running an EV was around 1-2p/mile in fuel at a time when fuel costs were £1.40/L. Infact when I added in business miles claims I was literally been paid by the government to run an EV.

It becomes a very hard sell indeed if however running costs close to near parity AND you add in stuff like longer charging times etc. This is the issue currently with heat pumps, where is the incentive for me to spend loads effort/time ditch the gas boiler and get a heat pump when running costs are equal if not more??

EV refuel costs aren't at parity yet with ICE cars, but its getting there very quickly, and certainly much more quickly any one anticipated. Bare in mind the government hasn't even started to tax EVs properly.

Price parity is a factor for sure, but it's not the only factor.

Even with the rising energy costs, EV's are still far cheaper to run. And petrol is likely to rise in cost further too.

Also far cheaper to service an EV and most first time owners/leasers will never have to replace brake pads/discs.

Aside from cost comparison though, what about comparing the actual cars? Would a person not traditionally expect to pay a little more for a faster, quieter and smoother car?

Also the ease of living with an EV would be very difficult for me and I suspect most current EV driver's to give up on. You mentioned charge times but the reality is that most drivers are totally unaffected by charge times because it tends to happen as we sleep.. on the rare occasions the average driver does exceed their cars range in a single journey, the wait to charge at a public charger equates to less overall time and effort than the equivalent endless petrol station visits to top up an ICE

I'm expecting the current incentives which made my company EV stupidly affordable to be withdrawn in the not too distant future, and I expect energy costs to rise further too. As such, my next car, if it's another EV, could potentially cost me slightly more than it's petrol equivalent overall, although I hope and expect that overall it will still be slightly cheaper.

But the petrol equivalent won't really be equivalent at all... So I'll stick with EV, make the costs work. Same way a Golf driver makes the extra ££ available to drive a Golf instead of a Clio. They're paying extra to drive a superior car.

[coetzeeh]

Dave Hedgehog said:

barian said:

If electricity for EV's were taxed at the same rate as petrol (58p per litre duty plus VAT on base cost and duty) , your EV cost would be over 40p/mile. Not going to happen anytime soon no doubt, but in the longer term?

they wont tax electric, to easy to avoid unless they tax all of it which

Taxation on electricity already exists in the shape of "green taxes" - Renewable Obligation, Climate Change Levy, CfD, FiT - it is embedded in your electricity cost as is the commodity cost, distribution cost, transmission costs etc.

[Dave Hedgehog]

coetzeeh said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

barian said:

If electricity for EV's were taxed at the same rate as petrol (58p per litre duty plus VAT on base cost and duty) , your EV cost would be over 40p/mile. Not going to happen anytime soon no doubt, but in the longer term?

they wont tax electric, to easy to avoid unless they tax all of it which

Taxation on electricity already exists in the shape of "green taxes" - Renewable Obligation, Climate Change Levy, CfD, FiT - it is embedded in your electricity cost as is the commodity cost, distribution cost, transmission costs etc.

but they are globally applied

what will be easy to avoid is if they put a tax on the EV charging component, just charge with a granny lead or a dumb charger and tell them you mine bitcoins