Are BMW i3's or Tesla Model 3 stolen
Discussion
After a somewhat unfortunate situation where my brothers performance car was stolen from our home the other day, i was wondering if our 2 daily drivers, the i3 and Model 3 are also targets for thieves? In my mind, I was thinking that the Model 3 would be pretty secure, not so sure about the i3 but do people bother sealing these? Any thoughts?
Not sure about the UK, but the theft rates of EV's is very low here in the US. Tesla uses a pretty secure mechanism and usually most owners dont use a traditional key as such - either the card in a wallet / purse or their phone. And its well known they are almost always data connected, and many have interior cameras too. So yeah, good luck stealing one, being able to drive it away and not have some high quality footage and data track for where you go!
i3 less so, as not all owners have the service and they do rely on a traditional key. BMW did have a bunch of vulnerabilities in the past, but I believe that it was beefed up for the i3 before launch. It isnt going to be perfect, but it should be pretty strong. However, you have to remember that its a frameless door (same with the Tesla, but at least they have separators between front and rear), which can be pretty simple to access. I was cleaning ours at the weekend and noticed that there is a pretty big gap you can get between the front window and the rear seals. The old coat hanger trick probably works pretty well. I dont leave anything inside ours as a result.
But as a car to target? I dont see people targeting EV's as a whole though. What happens if you only have 25 miles range left? Not a great get away car and then you have to find somewhere to charge it? And you cant even steal fuel either! I am aware of a few EV's being stolen, but its pretty rare. Too many problems. Its always going to be easier to target something else. Insurance costs are typically higher, not for the theft but for the potential repair bills.
i3 less so, as not all owners have the service and they do rely on a traditional key. BMW did have a bunch of vulnerabilities in the past, but I believe that it was beefed up for the i3 before launch. It isnt going to be perfect, but it should be pretty strong. However, you have to remember that its a frameless door (same with the Tesla, but at least they have separators between front and rear), which can be pretty simple to access. I was cleaning ours at the weekend and noticed that there is a pretty big gap you can get between the front window and the rear seals. The old coat hanger trick probably works pretty well. I dont leave anything inside ours as a result.
But as a car to target? I dont see people targeting EV's as a whole though. What happens if you only have 25 miles range left? Not a great get away car and then you have to find somewhere to charge it? And you cant even steal fuel either! I am aware of a few EV's being stolen, but its pretty rare. Too many problems. Its always going to be easier to target something else. Insurance costs are typically higher, not for the theft but for the potential repair bills.
TheDeuce said:
Tesla = too complicated to steal
I3 = too slow to make a getaway
Tesla too complicated? Maybe. Given that there are a number of car thieves in the US busted when they tried to steal a manual car, that could be true! And not everyone knows how to put a modern Mercedes into gear, so there’s that…I3 = too slow to make a getaway
And the i3? Well assuming it’s fully charged, is a 100 mile get away good enough? And they are a bit “obvious” for the average person to identify. Yeah, it was that noddy looking odd thing in a weird patchwork color scheme - yeah, that’s an i3 then….
Am pretty sure a few years ago a gang was going around and stealing S/Xs using the relay hack. The cars were been shipped to Europe for stripping and on eBay you could easily find 'spare' parts for RHD cars.....similar to what happens to many stolen Audi/Merc/BMWs.
Tesla then deployed 'pin to drive' and it seems like a lot of these thefts have stopped, as with pin to drive even if you get into the cars you cannot drive them.
The latest deployment of 'live streaming' sentry mode will deter thieves even more, as there is now the small chance owners are watching you plan your theft even before you are in the car.
The fact Tesla servicing can now access any car without the owners keys/login details from any location suggests Tesla have implemented something quite fundamental on the software side interms of connected security.
I believe even the 'sim' card in the cars are now built into the computers, so you cannot even just 'pull the sim card' to disable the connectivity.
Tesla then deployed 'pin to drive' and it seems like a lot of these thefts have stopped, as with pin to drive even if you get into the cars you cannot drive them.
The latest deployment of 'live streaming' sentry mode will deter thieves even more, as there is now the small chance owners are watching you plan your theft even before you are in the car.
The fact Tesla servicing can now access any car without the owners keys/login details from any location suggests Tesla have implemented something quite fundamental on the software side interms of connected security.
I believe even the 'sim' card in the cars are now built into the computers, so you cannot even just 'pull the sim card' to disable the connectivity.
thanks for all the replies, much appreciated. I was pretty thinking the same with the Tesla, at the moment they appear to be one step ahead of the thieves.
The i3 i suppose could be stolen like nay other BMW but might not be an obvious target, although tripping for parts could be quite lucrative.
My faith in humanity has taken a serious jolt after watching my brothers car disappear from our drive....
The i3 i suppose could be stolen like nay other BMW but might not be an obvious target, although tripping for parts could be quite lucrative.
My faith in humanity has taken a serious jolt after watching my brothers car disappear from our drive....
gangzoom said:
Am pretty sure a few years ago a gang was going around and stealing S/Xs using the relay hack. The cars were been shipped to Europe for stripping and on eBay you could easily find 'spare' parts for RHD cars.....similar to what happens to many stolen Audi/Merc/BMWs.
Really? Honestly never heard of any stolen Tesla. Clearly thats a sample size of one person, but really haven’t been aware of any stolen here. Now, if you happen to have a Prius or something similar, you are screwed. There are gangs making hundreds of thousands out of catalytic converters.off_again said:
gangzoom said:
Am pretty sure a few years ago a gang was going around and stealing S/Xs using the relay hack. The cars were been shipped to Europe for stripping and on eBay you could easily find 'spare' parts for RHD cars.....similar to what happens to many stolen Audi/Merc/BMWs.
Really? Honestly never heard of any stolen Tesla. Clearly thats a sample size of one person, but really haven’t been aware of any stolen here. Now, if you happen to have a Prius or something similar, you are screwed. There are gangs making hundreds of thousands out of catalytic converters.off_again said:
Really? Honestly never heard of any stolen Tesla. Clearly thats a sample size of one person
It started in Germany around late 2017ish, than came to the UK 2018. Tesla introduced Pin to Drive in late 2018 to help stop it. Directline even sent me a farada cage pouch for my keys and letter to ask me to enable pin to drive.
For a good while in 2017-18 everytime I visited my parents in London I disabled passive entry before Pin to drive came out.
https://electrek.co/2018/10/21/tesla-stealing-vide...
Edited by gangzoom on Friday 28th January 05:50
PIN to drive was lobbied for by the owners groups because of thefts. The MS and MX were relatively easy pray, the sim disabled from the drivers seat within 30 seconds, and cars stripped for parts as parts availability was (and still can be) bad. I recall one week were a spate of cars were taken which if the rate had continued would have equated to around 10% of all Teslas on the road at the time being stolen in a year, hence the owners group push and Teslas response.
For a fancy car the owners group still suggest turning off passive entry and turning on pin to drive, you may as well have use a key.
https://teslaowners.org.uk/kb/how-to-defeat-tesla-...
Another consideration is the prolific use of third party apps by Tesla owners, the tokens used now allow the car to be driven (you used to need the password too but this was removed recently), so anyone with the token can locate and open the car and drive away, it’s interesting the owners group are so strong on the one hand then support the use of 3rd party apps on the other.
BMW i3 security is linked more to the age of the design. I don’t believe it’s any different to the previous generation of 3/5/7 series cars given it came to market about 7 years ago (accepting there has been a facelift along the way). The latest BMW models have a number of similar connected features to Tesla, security is generally much better, keys sleep to prevent relay attacks, you can access the cars cameras remotely etc, but you’d need an i4/iX3/iX it get that sort of capability on an electric BMW
Tesla cabin security is very poor at preventing break ins. The alarm often fails to sound, the boot can be easily accessed from the cabin, the doors do not deadlock, and the panel gaps/seals coupled with electric door release make it fairly trivial to open with a long thin stick (I’m not saying anything that a thief won’t already know). On the flip side sentry mode will/should record this now although Tesla had to relocate the usb stick to the pretty secure glove box because they were getting stolen too!
For a fancy car the owners group still suggest turning off passive entry and turning on pin to drive, you may as well have use a key.
https://teslaowners.org.uk/kb/how-to-defeat-tesla-...
Another consideration is the prolific use of third party apps by Tesla owners, the tokens used now allow the car to be driven (you used to need the password too but this was removed recently), so anyone with the token can locate and open the car and drive away, it’s interesting the owners group are so strong on the one hand then support the use of 3rd party apps on the other.
BMW i3 security is linked more to the age of the design. I don’t believe it’s any different to the previous generation of 3/5/7 series cars given it came to market about 7 years ago (accepting there has been a facelift along the way). The latest BMW models have a number of similar connected features to Tesla, security is generally much better, keys sleep to prevent relay attacks, you can access the cars cameras remotely etc, but you’d need an i4/iX3/iX it get that sort of capability on an electric BMW
Tesla cabin security is very poor at preventing break ins. The alarm often fails to sound, the boot can be easily accessed from the cabin, the doors do not deadlock, and the panel gaps/seals coupled with electric door release make it fairly trivial to open with a long thin stick (I’m not saying anything that a thief won’t already know). On the flip side sentry mode will/should record this now although Tesla had to relocate the usb stick to the pretty secure glove box because they were getting stolen too!
I have only ever heard of one EV being stolen and that was a Nissan Leaf taken with keys which was later found minus front end parts.
More mainstream cars are stolen for parts, cloning or to be used in general crime. As more EV’s get salvaged theft for parts may increase but I doubt cloning will be an issue due to the way the cars are technology linked.
As for general crime, EV’s would be good getaway cars but a long pursuit may be out of the question and most thieves probably believe Elon can turn a car off remotely.
More mainstream cars are stolen for parts, cloning or to be used in general crime. As more EV’s get salvaged theft for parts may increase but I doubt cloning will be an issue due to the way the cars are technology linked.
As for general crime, EV’s would be good getaway cars but a long pursuit may be out of the question and most thieves probably believe Elon can turn a car off remotely.
One might imagine that the stereotypical chap who likes to use a stolen car may well not have easy home charging to then use an EV? At the same time, the market maybe isn't old enough for there to yet be a healthy number of scrotes who buy stolen parts to fix their cars etc?
It's probably merely a matter of time before what is a very small market grows large enough to be as rewarding as pre-existing, much larger markets. There's still only a few hundred thousand EVs in the U.K. and most are kept on driveways or garages in lower crime areas.
It's probably merely a matter of time before what is a very small market grows large enough to be as rewarding as pre-existing, much larger markets. There's still only a few hundred thousand EVs in the U.K. and most are kept on driveways or garages in lower crime areas.
DonkeyApple said:
One might imagine that the stereotypical chap who likes to use a stolen car may well not have easy home charging to then use an EV? At the same time, the market maybe isn't old enough for there to yet be a healthy number of scrotes who buy stolen parts to fix their cars etc?
It's probably merely a matter of time before what is a very small market grows large enough to be as rewarding as pre-existing, much larger markets. There's still only a few hundred thousand EVs in the U.K. and most are kept on driveways or garages in lower crime areas.
Go on eBay and you’ll find a Lithuanian seller with a seemingly endless supply of right hand drive Tesla parts which is a little odd given the nearest RHD market is over a thousand miles away. Organised crime are happily steeling them for parts already. It's probably merely a matter of time before what is a very small market grows large enough to be as rewarding as pre-existing, much larger markets. There's still only a few hundred thousand EVs in the U.K. and most are kept on driveways or garages in lower crime areas.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TESLA-MODEL-S-75-Interi...
gangzoom said:
It started in Germany around late 2017ish, than came to the UK 2018.
Tesla introduced Pin to Drive in late 2018 to help stop it. Directline even sent me a farada cage pouch for my keys and letter to ask me to enable pin to drive.
For a good while in 2017-18 everytime I visited my parents in London I disabled passive entry before Pin to drive came out.
https://electrek.co/2018/10/21/tesla-stealing-vide...
Cough…. An insurance company being pro-active? Bloody hell, what next? Realistic insurance rates? I guess I am dreaming… Tesla introduced Pin to Drive in late 2018 to help stop it. Directline even sent me a farada cage pouch for my keys and letter to ask me to enable pin to drive.
For a good while in 2017-18 everytime I visited my parents in London I disabled passive entry before Pin to drive came out.
https://electrek.co/2018/10/21/tesla-stealing-vide...
Edited by gangzoom on Friday 28th January 05:50
Itsallicanafford said:
After a somewhat unfortunate situation where my brothers performance car was stolen from our home the other day, i was wondering if our 2 daily drivers, the i3 and Model 3 are also targets for thieves? In my mind, I was thinking that the Model 3 would be pretty secure, not so sure about the i3 but do people bother sealing these? Any thoughts?
Too scared about getting it back to Bradford #rangeanxiety TX.
off_again said:
Cough…. An insurance company being pro-active? Bloody hell, what next? Realistic insurance rates? I guess I am dreaming…
Well DirectLine appeared to have a system glich last year, both cars insured for £600 all in. No idea what it'll be this year, but I would be amazed if the numbers are similar.
Heres Johnny said:
DonkeyApple said:
One might imagine that the stereotypical chap who likes to use a stolen car may well not have easy home charging to then use an EV? At the same time, the market maybe isn't old enough for there to yet be a healthy number of scrotes who buy stolen parts to fix their cars etc?
It's probably merely a matter of time before what is a very small market grows large enough to be as rewarding as pre-existing, much larger markets. There's still only a few hundred thousand EVs in the U.K. and most are kept on driveways or garages in lower crime areas.
Go on eBay and you’ll find a Lithuanian seller with a seemingly endless supply of right hand drive Tesla parts which is a little odd given the nearest RHD market is over a thousand miles away. Organised crime are happily steeling them for parts already. It's probably merely a matter of time before what is a very small market grows large enough to be as rewarding as pre-existing, much larger markets. There's still only a few hundred thousand EVs in the U.K. and most are kept on driveways or garages in lower crime areas.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TESLA-MODEL-S-75-Interi...
It's a new market, the target products are not just absent in any kind of numbers but not yet being kept in the obvious nickable areas, not yet being used by the section of society that fuel thefts nor old enough and cheap enough to demand spares of that nature.
Absolutely everything is nickable, whether it gets nicked is really just a function of supply and demand. EVs are generally just too new and too niche to make it all that viable. But it's not some mystical benefit due to electrons but merely a function of market timing. Once we reach the point where there's a credible number of EVs on the road, they are becoming old enough that the back street mechanics are operating and the cars are in the hands of enough people who will happily support criminal activity if it saves them 50p then EVs will be disappearing at the same rates as other things that can't ultimately be bolted down.
The only real discussion once EVs exist in sufficient numbers to support the thieving industry is whether their nick rate gets as high as the R32.
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